52. Yemen: The War with No End with Scott Horton

About this episode

Scott Horton provides the truth about current events with historical context. He has a way of weaving together seemingly unconnected events to paint a big picture most people cannot see for themselves. He is the director of The Libertarian Institute, editor of antiwar.com, and runs a popular podcast called The Scott Horton Show.

Scott returns to The Bad Roman once again, in the midst of a media frenzy around Putin’s war with Ukraine, to remind us (and educate us) on the ongoing war, and general disruption, the United State of America has been wagging in Yemen and the Middle East.

What we’re doing in Yemen is illegal. We are providing every kind of support (besides troops) to Saudi Arabia, the UAE, and Al Qaeda as they bomb and blockade the Houthi people in the north. Children are starving. And what do we even gain from this? A bit of money for a corporation? A feeling of world domination? There is a long, complicated history of us meddling in the Middle East that led us to this point. Scott Horton sorts it out for us. 

To learn more about Scott Horton and his work, you can follow Scott on Twitter. buy or listen to his books about the war in the Middle East. If you are interested in learning more about the situation and Yemen and the middle east check out episode 23, our first interview with Scott.

EPISODE TIMESTAMPS:

1:57 What happened to Biden’s Promise?

• He ordered that everything we were doing in Yemen stop

  • Yet it continues

  • He ordered that resupply and maintenance, intelligence and logistics from the US cease

  • The US used to refuel Saudi/UAE planes in the air and created a Navy blockade against Iran, but stopped 

  • Admiral Kirby had said they were going to implement Biden’s order in February

    • By May, he was saying, “Of course, we need to send them plane maintenance teams”

    • After that, we just resumed our support

5:40 The Price of War

• Civilians are suffering the most

• No one is even keeping a casualty count for citizens

• They’ll tell us about the humanitarian crisis after it’s all over

6:46 Why no one cares in the US

• Yemen is far away

• People don’t even know where it is

• Also, we’re not sending troops to die or be injured there, so it’s not personal to us

7:33 Why do we keep it going?

• We have to do whatever Saudi Arabia tells us

• Money

  • From arms sales to Saudis

• There will not be a good enough reason to satisfy us

  • Nothing they could say would make this reasonable

• Petrodollar

• To stay dominant in the Middle East

10:35 Who is our enemy?

• Right now, we’re backing Al Qaeda

• Obama’s drone wars were against Al Qaeda

  • Special forces sent in a lot

    • Still probably are at times

    • But we are not occupying

• Switched sides in 2015

11:43 People's awareness

• Even when we fully invaded Iraq, people stopped paying attention by the end of 2003

• Even well-educated friend thought Yemen was in Africa

  • It’s the southwestern tip of the Arabian Peninsula

• This has been going on for decades, but no one noticed until Obama started bombing in 2009

  • Except that one incident where Bush bombed a car belonging to Al-Quaeda and killed an American who was hanging out with them

    • After that, he let the Yemeni dictator do the fighting

      • The dictator was playing both sides

        • Fighting Al-Qaeda

        • Also paying them to fight the Shiites

  • Obama said that Bush was going after too many groups

    •  Focused on Al-Qaeda

      1. Turns out there were only 29 guys to target

      2. Killed thousands of people in Pakistan

      3. In exchange, we helped them win against the Taliban

      4.  That war led to the rise of ISIS

      5. Al-Qaeda was responsible for

         1. Coordinating 9/11

         2. Tried to bomb a plane over Detroit

         3. Charlie Hebdo attack

         4. Printer cartridge plots

         5. Comic Convention in France

         6. Death metal concert

         7. Other massacres in France

         8. One in Brussels

17:42 Houthi

• Scott's episode with Shereen, she mentioned that Houthis have more support than ever

• Sort of like what Ron Paul said

  • They're mad because we're bombing their homes, so they're retaliating the best way they know-how

    • They end up creating or joining terrorist organizations

18:44 Rewind - How did the War in Yemen Start

• Jimmy Carter’s problem

  • Americans had Vietnam Syndrome – they were done with war

  • His national security advisors wanted to go against Russia

  • They decided if we can't directly fight them, we should convince them to fight a worthless war like we just did and drain all their resources

    • We baited them into unsustainable over-expansion

      • In Afghanistan

      • By supporting the Mujahideen

      • Russia invaded that winter, but who knows if our actions had anything to do with it 

      • We continued to fight the Soviets through the Mujahideen and the Arab Afghan Army

        • Arab men from around the world who came to fight the holy war

        • Formed into Al Qaeda

          • Every Al Qaeda group in the world currently has its roots with fighting for the CIA under Reagan against the Soviets in Afghanistan

      • We also supported Saddam Hussein against Iran in the 80s

        • Our puppet government had been overthrown

        • Supported Saddam for 8 years

          • Until he invaded Kuwait

          • Suddenly, we launched Operation Desert Storm at him

      • Bush Sr. encouraged the Shiite uprising in Iraq

        • until he realized the leaders came from Iran

        • then we had them crushed by Saddam Hussein

          • We blamed him for the massacre and went to war against him

          • “We’re Superman, and it’s our job to protect these Shiites” - Scott

24:44 Why they attacked us

• We kept our bases in Saudi Arabia to police Iraq and Iran

  • All the Mujahideen mercenaries we had created turned on us

    • We were occupying their holy land

      • Imagine if Jesus had been born in Texas and someone just decided to own that space

• Revenge

• For backing Israel against Palestine

• For supporting dictators in the region

26:09 Their strategy

• Hit us

• Bog us down

• Trick us as we’d tricked the Soviets

  • Get us to invade Afghanistan

    • The loss of Afghani life doesn’t matter to them

      • If they’re true Muslims, they’ll go to Heaven

    • The goal was to break the power of the American Empire

    • America spread the Jihad throughout the region

      • We radicalized people everywhere we went because we brought chaos

27:51 Continued timeline

• George W took the Shiites his dad abandoned to Baghdad

  • Kicked the Sunnis out of power

    • Pushed them out of the city right into the open arms of Al Qaeda

• Radicalized fighters from across the region met in Iraq to attack us and the Shiites

  • Suicide bombers

  • Head choppers

  • They targeted civilians and people praying at the mosque

• After the war, they all went home and caused trouble

  • Syria, Libya, Yemen…

  • Obama took their side in Libya and Syria

• Obama ordered the CIA to go after Al Qaeda

  • So, they drop bombs and missiles on those associated with Bin Laden

  • Small problem: “People really don't like it when you drop gigantic explosives on their family members and tear their bodies apart.” - Scott

    • Good motivation to join Al Qaeda

      • “Obama's trying to kill these guys, but as he's killing them, he's just essentially watering the garden with their blood and growing more and more of their replacements.” - Scott

31:54 Yemen

• The USA is bombing Al Qaeda

• Bribing Saleh in the capital with money and weapons for permission to bomb

  • But he was also hiring Al Qaeda to help him fight his enemies

    • He was losing, and his enemy got stronger with each defeat

    • He also was financing his enemy

  • They were all getting worn out

• 2011 Arab Spring

  • Successful in Egypt and Tunisia

  • The whole region breaks out and tries to overthrow rulers

  • In Yemen, all groups gathered and agreed: Ali Abdullah Saleh must go

    • Many protests

    • Assassination attempts with explosives

      • 2nd one who injured him went to Saudi Arabia for treatment

    • While he was in the hospital, Hilary made a deal with the Saudis to replace Saleh with his VP

      • They created a one-man election, he would not allow for re-election; he just stayed in office, he caused gas prices to double/triple overnight; made the Houthis’ lives more difficult and then tried to attack them (see a full list of the terrible things this guy did in Scott’s book)

      • He lost, just like Saleh always did, but this time because of Saleh he didn’t go away quietly and took two-thirds of the army with him. They then allied with his former enemies in order to attack the new ruler, who, it turns out, he was actually a Zaydi Shiite from the north

38:00 Houthis vs Saleh’s VP

• 2014, the Houthi-Saleh alliance seized the capital

• 2015, US Central Command allied with Houthis

  • Gave them intelligence to fight Al Qaeda

  • … until we didn’t

    • Obama stabbed them in the back

    • Suddenly, we’re allied with Saudi Arabia, UAE, and Al Qaeda trying to drive the Houthis out of power

      • No progress has been made in this war

  • Loophole of responsibility 

    • No American lives are being lost

    • This is a Saudi-led coalition

      • We're just helping them out a bit

41:30 Does that make any sense?

• We are the empire

  • Saudi Arabia is our client: We make all the equipment in the US - this is our war

  • Why are we begging our clients to stay with us?

    • For money? Why are we so desperate for money?

• Trump had raised tariffs on China

  • This hurt American manufacturing because pricing and availability changed

  • We’d already cut taxes

  • We decided to bolster the Military-Industrial Complex

  • Made a contract with Raytheon to build all the equipment

  •  as if that boosts our entire economy somehow

  • Trump boasted that Saudi Arabia was spending $450 billion on our weapons 

  • They really only spent $3 billion, which is enough to kill way too many people

  • He claimed that a million jobs were reliant on Saudi Arabia’s purchases

  • Maybe 30,000 are

  • It's really just welfare for big companies that are paid for in human lives 

45:30 What to bomb

• The Saudi military can bomb whatever they want

• The US Military can blame things on Saudi Arabia, so they also can attack wherever they want 

• They're fighting an economic war by bombing farms, roads, and marketplaces

• Hospitals

• Bombing water has led to cholera outbreaks

  • Biggest outbreak since WWII

  • Babies and toddlers die of dehydration

48:03 Reminder of who we are fighting

• Our enemies in Yemen never attacked us

  • Our allies did

• The Houthis are not heroes, but they never did anything to provoke an attack from us

• We keep attacking civilians

  • Against Geneva Convention

    • We would lock anyone else up for our crimes

    • Lawyers working for POTUS have written memos saying we’re breaking the law and could get in trouble

• Every US president involved is a war criminal

  • Every president since Carter is condemned in this episode

  • “They’re just presidents. They’re not America.” - Scott

  • They’re the worst people in North America

  • They’ve all done terrible things; none is better than the others

  • None of this should hurt your feelings. You don’t have a personal connection to any president.

  • “I don't think that you have to condemn America to condemn that man and the decisions he made.” - Scott

  • Both Trump and Obama made decisions to kill thousands just to placate someone else on the hill

  • These men do not represent the wishes or morals of the American people

    • “You can get people to cheer for these things, but only by lying to them from morning to night in order to get them to be afraid and then endorse the idea that their government is only trying their best to protect them when it's just not true” - Scott

  • “I’m not anti-American; I’m anti-government-of-America.” - Craig

  • The average citizen is not guilty except by electing the people who are

56:22 Branch Davidians at Waco

• Americans

• Took over a tiny plot of land in a tiny town in Texas

• FBI & president acted as if they were foreigners

  • The reality is, we’re all American

• 2 sides + innocents caught in the crossfire

• Treated David Koresh like Saddam Hussein

  • Called him crazy so they could seize his weapons and kill him “to save everyone else”

  • Same script in 1993 that they used again in 2003

• The threats they tell us about just aren’t that likely to attack, in reality

  • Unless the US influences the situation to start something

  • “This is the big secret… America has no enemies in the world at all.” - Scott

    • We would be just fine without the Pentagon or a military

      • Ron Paul said we could defend ourselves with just a couple of good submarines holding basic torpedoes

59:46 World powers

• USA

• Brazil?

  • 2nd biggest American economy after the US, Canada, and Mexico

    • Canada and Mexico are not threats; we’re friends

  • Does not have a navy

• Europe

  • Friends

  • Including Russia

    • Putin will tell you we’re partners

• Africa

  • None

  • Egypt is under our thumb

    • They wouldn’t start a war that shuts down their main source of income (the Suez Canal) and gets them bombed

• India

  • A billion people, most desperately poor

  • No outward foreign policy in place at all

• China

  • Our 2nd biggest trading partner

  • Nixon made friends with Mao 50 years ago

    • Separated them from the Soviet Union

    • Mao was so dangerous, it was better to be his friend

  • After Mao died, it was more of a fascist dictatorship with a market economy

  • The worst that might happen is they invade Taiwan, which is unlikely

    • We officially recognize Taiwan as part of China

    • We don’t want a war there, but we probably won’t defend Taiwan

  • Even if they did take Taiwan, they’re not going to go further and overtake the US as the world empire  

• Other Asian countries

  • Just not interested in conflict

  • Japan is no longer an imperialist power

    • Their population is aging

• Middle East

  • Conflicts among tribal and religious groups

  • But Iran is not coming for Israel

    • And if they were, Israel is the most aggressive threat in the region

• “We could just completely shed ourselves of this militarism and be a limited constitutional republic with a free-market capitalist economy.” - Scott

  • No one can look back at the last 20 years and say, “Thank God we did that!”

  • Our bridges and other infrastructure are crumbling

    • We wasted $10 trillion blowing innocent people up

      • To shuffle power around in the Middle East

1:07:13 The humanitarian crisis in Yemen

• Every 75 seconds, a child dies from hunger due to the blockade

• Famine

• The poorest country in the Middle East

• IMF convinced them to plow under their millet and other food crops

  •  Planted coffee and cotton instead

  •  Sold on the global market so they could trade yummy food from other countries

  •  Worked great until the US blockaded them

    •  You can't eat cotton and coffee

• Houthis were defined as a terrorist organization, but it was redacted

  • Talking about doing that again

    • Which will make it illegal to send in food or other aid

• This is not propaganda like Saddam Hussein throwing premature babies on the floor

  • This is real.

  • These babies are dying.

  • Starving to death.

• “We need to stop doing this; we need to find a different path.” - Craig

1:10:30 Religious War?

• Christians in the US we’re told we had to go fight the spread of radical Islam

  • Saddam Hussein was an atheist

    • He was afraid of Osama Bin Laden’s Islam

• For years, we were told we must stop the Muslims from wiping us out

  • Now, we’ve forgotten about them

    • Focus has shifted to China and Russia

• Truth: “Al Qaeda is still out there and the American policies that drive them to attack us still exist in great measure.” - Scott

• We support all these kings and sultans

• The danger comes from American policies messing stuff up

• It doesn’t have to be this way

• Most people just don’t understand how the whole story is connected

  • Or that it’s possible for us to not be over there in the Middle East

  • Ron Paul tried to tell people we could get out

    • They simply dismissed him

• Trump called George W the dumbest and worst

  • Caused Republicans to decide between Bush and Trump: which is worse?

  • If they wanted to stay loyal to the current guy, they had to denounce their old beliefs

  • Also, Trump is ruthless

    • If he thought bombing the Middle East would help America, he would not hesitate

      • But he didn’t think that

      • He wanted out

  • Trump led people to question not only why we were over there under Bush

    • But why we are still over there

• Colonel Douglas MacGregor

  • Wrote the book on invasions

  • Says we don’t have to be in conflict with Russia

    • Or China

    • We don’t have any enemies at all

      • Anyone who says otherwise needs their head examined

1:18:28 George Washington’s ghost

• Calling out, “It’s supposed to be a limited republic!”

  • Not in a constant state of war and/or emergency

  • War is only for extreme situations

  • How can we be free or have rights in an emergency state?

• We are not protecting the Bill of Rights

  • We’re not passing it down

  • It is dying

• We don't have a pact with Jesus to protect our Bill of Rights

• You can’t have a limited republic with a world empire

  • Economic pain? High inflation?

    • Empire economics

      • No hard money

        • Must be able to print more for emergencies

    • “This is the bubble, friends, and the crash is coming.” - Scott

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Related Episodes

Related Blog Post

51. Jesus the Anarchist with Alexandre Christoyannopoulos and Nicholas Harrelson

In this episode, Alexandre Christoyannopoulos, author of Christian Anarchism, Tolstoy's Political Thought, and Essays in Anarchism and Religion, joins your host Craig Harguess alongside our beloved Bad Roman contributor, Nicholas Harrelson, from across the pond. He literally wrote the book on Christian anarchism. Alex is French and Greek, he is from Belgium and has lived in the UK since 1997. He holds a BA in economics, a MA in international relations and European studies, and a Ph.D. in politics and religion. He has studied all the major thinkers in anarchism and written several academic publications, which you can (and should) explore on his website.

In addition to being an expert scholar on Christian Anarchy, Alex is a teacher, lecturer, and Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy. On the show, he shares what he has learned, about Jesus and Anarchy and how we can better examine our own philosophy on the topic.

The episode is a wide-ranging conversation that covers everything from pacifism and turning the other cheek to Romans 13 and the many strains of anarchism – how we can all work together? Was Jesus really an anarchist?

EPISODE TIMESTAMPS:

2:15 Alex’s Timeline

• Did not start off life religious

• Grew up in Belgium with Greek and French parents

• Went to uni in England

• Near the end of his MA, developing curiosity in religion

  • Literally finished his degree as 9/11 happened

  • Decided to pursue Ph.D. in the relationship between religious and political structures

    • Started studying what Jesus said

    • Then found Tolstoy

      • Changed Ph.D. to his political/religious philosophy

      • Tolstoy takes Jesus literally and applies His teaching to the state

      • But there are gaps

        • He ignores Paul

        • He doesn’t address “render unto Caesar”

    • Went down the rabbit hole of other writers about Jesus and politics

    • Wound up with a thesis on Christian Anarchism

      • Goal: to take what others have said about Jesus’ political views and weave them together

7:52 Craig’s Timeline

10:36 Interpreting Scripture leads to anarchy

• You can make the Bible support almost any point you make

  • But it’s pretty clear and consistent on love and non-violence

    • Turning the other cheek is what sets Christianity apart

    • The cross is an example of love and forgiveness even unto death

  • It’s often the rejection of violence that leads to the rejection of the state

    • Christianity, if followed consistently, means rejecting violence

      • The state is violent

      • The state causes citizens to be violent

      • It claims a monopoly on “legal/good” violence

  • The average Christians firmly believe we need to infiltrate the state

    • “There’s no evidence of Jesus using the state to promote His message of peace.” - Craig

15:00 Nick’s Timeline

• Liberal

• Southerner, patriotic

• Military: 2 tours in Iraq, wounded, many friends committed suicide after

• Worked in the senate 3 years

• Came to pacifism from reading Tolstoy

  • Reconciled Christianity with his new view on the world

• Recognized the state runs on coercion and violence

  • “I came to realize that, to remain consistent, I had to probably be an anarchist as well.” - Nick

• Identified with Tolstoy’s military experience

• Sunday Christians

  • “It’s like we go into a church and turn on this mindset, and then we leave the church and think nothing of it for the rest of the week.” - Nick

  • Tolstoy offered consistency

18:08 Following the Early Church

• “Not everything that can be done through the state has to rely on violence in order to achieve anything, but a lot of it does. A lot of laws ultimately rely on the threat of violence.” - Alex

• The Early Church had nothing to do with Rome

  • Some of them knew Jesus

    • Maybe we should follow their example

• It’s risky and uncertain to go against the status quo

24:19 Anarchism vs Christian Anarchism

• In anarchism, there is a spectrum from very confrontational to strictly non-confrontational

• Christian spectrum

  • From turning over the tables to turning the other cheek

• But we must resist evil, even if we cannot use violence

27:20 Turning the other cheek

• Not passive action

• Surprises attacker

• Makes observers question who is in the right

• Gives you the higher moral ground

• Clearly communicates that you do not approve of what the attacker is defending

30:01 Violence or Pacifism? 

• Martin Luther King Jr. followed in the way of Gandhi

• “You’re going to push the state away a lot quicker by being non-violent because the state only understands violence.” - Craig 

• A lot of people have emulated Gandhi and had peaceful movements of resistance

• A study was done in 2011 compared different campaigns against oppression,

  • Nonviolent ones were twice as effective 

  • and more likely to last peacefully after the oppressors had been defeated

  • All fights against oppression are more likely to fail than succeed

• Reacting violently pulls the enemy together against you

  • Non-violence might cause some of the people involved to question what they're doing

• Martin Luther King jr. learned a lot about his nonviolent tactics from Gandhi

  • C.S. Lewis would argue that all truths point towards God

  • Gandhi was a fan of Jesus but didn't like the way Christians were living

  • Dr. King learned a lot about how Jesus lived and taught from a non-Christian

• A lot of Christians take inspiration from Tolstoy

  • but they're afraid to admit it

  • He's an "awkward Christian" because he doesn't hold to some theological views

• “Go back to the source– as in picking up the Bible, reading it and thinking, ‘Well, this is more radical than they tell us every Sunday.’” - Alex

• Anabaptists and Catholic Workers are good current examples of peaceful radicals

41:15 Jesus and Paul

• Simplify. Focus on Jesus.

  • Theology gets so messy and confusing

  • We are not followers of Paul

  • If Jesus was really the son of God and rose from the dead, shouldn't we view him as the most important person to follow?

• Romans 13

  • The chapter on obeying government

  • Addressed in Alex's book

  • Maybe an exegesis on The Sermon on the Mount

  • Must be read In the context of chapter 12

  • Nick's sermon

44:17 Anarchist societies

• Monastic orders

• The Benedict Option

  • Communities that defy the state simply by ignoring it

• Tolstoy believed that Jesus’ orders were not to become separate from the world but to live within it

  • To be different, maybe even “awkward”

    •  but not withdrawn

  • The Catholic Workers have a community in rural areas

    • but hospitality houses in urban places

48:19 Anarcho-capitalism?

• A hot potato topic

• Most anarchists believe that their ideals push people toward mutual aid

  • Capitalism is fundamentally against that

    • It’s about competition

    • And individual land ownership

      • Which, at the end of the day, requires some sort of police force to enforce

      • What happens when your accumulation of land starts to be to the detriment of others?

52:34 Secular versus Christian anarchists

• Often work together just fine

  • Usually, there's some line drawn

    • Won’t work with violent groups

    • Won’t work with capitalists

• Some anarchists can't stand the idea of having Christ as King

  • They won't even ally themselves with Christian anarchists

• Craig: Why do we allow labels and divisions? There’s bigger fish to fry.

  • “We have the same goals: to see the state go away and to live our life peacefully.” - Craig

    • They don’t have to have Christ as King in order to be allies

• Many anarchists say you must revoke religion to join

  • Because there must be no authority

  • Others just say we must be against the state

• Christians reject the state for 2 general reasons

  • Violence

  • Idolatry

  • Some people say rejecting the state is not enough to call yourself an anarchist

• What everyone can agree on

  • We're against domination

• Most anarchists find themselves passionate about connected issues

  • These are not necessarily addressed in the Gospels

    • But anarchists see them as essential

      • And get upset if others don’t

• “Keep it simple, Stupid” - Craig

1:03:17 People's entrances into anarchism

• From different political sides

• Different religious views

• Different economic philosophies

• Everyone takes small steps 

• Maybe instead of getting mad at people for thinking differently, we should just be patient

  • Maybe they'll eventually learn

  • No need to scream in horror at the very notion of anarcho-capitalism

  • “[If] it's an avenue through which people come your way, then don't close it.” - Alex

1:06:27 Ideological Scale

• Communism emphasizes equality over freedom

• Capitalism/liberalism emphasizes freedom over equality

• Anarchism tries to hold both in equal importance

  • Defends against both communism and capitalism

  • But who will take care of the vulnerable?

    • With great freedom comes great responsibility

      • We should use our freedom to help

1:09:21 Liturgical versus Protestant Christian Antichrists

•  Most come from Protestant backgrounds

  • They are encouraged to read and interpret scriptures for themselves

1:14:48 The first Jewish government

• 1 Samuel 8

  • The Jews choose a state instead of God

  • When Jesus comes, they expect Him to rule according to the type of government they had demanded

    •  rather than the type of rule they had before there were kings in Israel

  • Satan tries to give Jesus a kingdom, 

    • but he already had a Kingdom  

    • He didn't want the earthly one Satan offered

1:16:30 God uses the state

• Something that He wishes we rejected, but He still uses nonetheless

  • Despite what’s evil or problematic about it

• This doesn’t mean we do everything the state demands

• Pay your taxes

  • But give everything else to God

• God wants us to have faith in Him rather than the state

• Follow Jesus’ example rather than the state’s demands when they conflict

• Everything warned about in Samuel, our US government is doing

• “Why are you going to put these people in power when you've already got a king? The best king of all?” - Craig

1:19:40 Were Jesus and the Early Church truly anarchists?

• Yes…

• But the term “anarchist” didn’t exist back then

• And the Roman Empire was different from our form of government

• Answer expounded on in this The Stockholm University Press publication (go directly to the chapter discussed)

• It gets complicated 

• … but yes

1:22:25 Plugs

• List of Publications

• Free Version of Christian Anarchism

• Email

Recommend starting with Christian Anarchism to get a general understanding

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Related Episodes

50. Changing Hearts: Heal, Develop, Share with David Gornoski

David Gornoski is the host of the radio show A Neighbor’s Choice –a show that looks at politics, science, and culture through the lens of Jesus’ personhood revolution. In this episode, David shares his strategy for changing the direction of the world. If we want to see political change, we must change the hearts of the citizens. In order to do this, we must imitate Jesus. On his radio show and also on his online exclusive podcast and film series, THINGS HIDDEN, David has interviewed personalities like Ron Paul, Jordan Peterson, and Slavoj Žižek.

David has also written multiple essays and columns promoting Jesus’ nonviolent ethos and personhood revolution for publications such as DailyCaller, Townhall, American Conservative, and FEE. David’s shows provide a look at current events through the lens of anthropology and imitating what Christ really did while He was on Earth. His YouTube channel is currently banned for “speaking too much truth” (something we Christian-anarchist know all too well).

After listening you will have a new understanding of how we can help lead people away from the state and to Christ by healing, developing new technologies, and sharing victims’ stories.

EPISODE TIMESTAMPS:

3:05 Jesus changed history

• The last shall be first and the first shall be last

  • In His day, the elite got the place of honor at the amphitheater

    • Today, disabled people get the place of honor in the theater 

      • No one dares take those seats, even if the theater’s packed

  • Groups are now vying to be seen as the least

    • BLM, StopAsianHate, women

    • Gun owners vs gun violence victims

    • Right vs left

  • Who are the victims and who are the monsters?

  • I desire mercy, not sacrifice

    • People these days try to show mercy with sacrifice

      • I will give you this medicine for free, but if you don't take it, you will be excluded from society 

  • “Everybody's vying for the perks of being the most supreme martyr.” - David

    • They want to stick their face in the hole of the painting the cross like tourists do

    • “Jesus said the stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone. Meaning, in the act of being perceived to be rejected, you gain power and that power can be used for good or evil.” - David

  • They convinced Americans that we needed to be in Afghanistan to help women become empowered 

    • “It's disturbing to me how Christians will buy into this narrative to we're helping these folks by dropping bombs on their children.” -Craig

      • “We’re helping them, but we have to kill them first.” -Craig

  • Sometimes atheists act more Christ-like than Christians

    • They get it from somewhere

      • Jesus’ influence permeates the world

      • Loving one’s neighbor or enemy were not concepts in the world when Jesus was on Earth or before

12:37 Government & Politics

• To fix stuff, we need to change people's minds about the state by loving our enemies and caring for our neighbors

  • Thus exposing the government for not doing it

• “The government is almost like a curse for when a society becomes decadent and stupid, and it doesn't know how to police itself.” - David

• Which came first? Corrupt government or corrupt society?

• No matter who you are, you are part of society and part of the political system

• Parties

  •  Libertarian

    • Fight about everything, fiercely

    • No unity

  • Democrats

    • We're going to take your stuff and do whatever we want with it

    • and we will tell you that to your face

  • Republicans

    • We will do the same as the Democrats, but try to hide it

• Libertarianism and anarchism are like supplements 

  • When you don't have Jesus Himself, you take vitamin pills of His philosophy 

  • They're like a malnourished form of Christianity

    • “Libertarianism and Anarchism only exist because there's a malnourished form of Christianity that's dominant in the culture.” - David

16:32 Christianity

• People get defensive against the American version of Christianity… because it's not true Christianity!

  • People take more of Decartes’ approach

    • I think I am ___, therefore I am 

    • Also apply other religions/ways of thinking’s approach to their Christian religion

  • Spreading American Christianity is like telling a young black person that if they believe in the stories they're told about MLK, then they can benefit from what he did

    • We all benefit from him, even those of us who don't know he existed

  • Jesus is the King of the world. He has an effect on everyone. 

    • It doesn’t start when we believe the exact formula our sect says we must

• Paul

  • “God didn't want him to kill those people. So the God that he was serving didn't exist.” - David

  • He quoted a Greek play when telling the Greeks his conversion story

    •  From Bacchae

      • The people put the god Dionysis on trial as if they had authority over him, just as Jesus was put on trial when He's the ruler of the universe

      • However, instead of destroying his enemies, Jesus submitted to them quietly and then showed Saul (Paul) love instead of punishing him

23:18 To make the state irrelevant

• We have to change people's hearts by imitating Christ

• I don’t want to call myself an anarchist anymore; I’m just telling people I’m a Christian -Craig

  • I’m an anarchist because I’m a Christian

    • No King but Christ

    • I imitate Jesus, who was not involved with the state!

      •  Are we not going to imitate Jesus?

  • Polycarp

    • Honor the government unless it does us harm

      • What do they do that doesn’t bring someone harm?

• Our message must stay consistent

  • No King but Christ means we don’t follow to the state

    • Counterargument: If the state does exist, it can be used to move things in the right direction

      • There’s good teachers in a bad school

      • People make friends in concentration camps

• Is voting violence?

  • Most of the time, yes

  • But voting for Ron Paul might not have been

  • People want to vote for more liberty

    • Legalize… liberty?

      • “Dude… you’ve already got liberty.” -Craig

      • Don’t force me into your vision of liberty by law

    • You cannot gain liberty through force

29:43 So, what does it look like to bring about liberty by changing hearts?

• Love your neighbor, and everything else will fall into place

  • How? 

    • How do we love triple-maskers who want us to behave like them?

    • What does it look like to love someone who wants the vaccine to be required for you to go to the store and feed your family?

    • or the people who want you to hate yourself for your gender or skin color?

  • Ask real questions

    • Do you want to force people to get the vaccine?

      • No, but they should be pushed to

        • Pushed how?

        • Pushed by vaccine passports

        • How would the passports be enforced?

          • It’s force

  • Imitate Jesus

    • He was healing people all the time

    • He asked people questions to get them to think

    • To heal:

      • Find cures for major diseases

      • People are dependent on the state to heal them

        • Nutrition science is funded by the state

      • Scientists and doctors believe that 90% of diseases or disappear if we stopped eating vegetable oils

        • Most olive oils are corrupted, but it's not on their labels

        • They sneak vegetable oil into everything, even products that say they're made with olive oil or  something else

        • If a fat guy and a skinny guy eat the same amount of food

          • The difference is how their body processes vegetable oils

          • The fat guy's body stores it

          • The skinny guys runs it as fuel

            • Can cause autoimmune disorders

      • Set aside Wednesday services for health education

      • Therapeutic Ketosis

      • Prison reduced omega-6

        • Antisocial violent tendencies reduced

      • Heal your neighbors’ chronic health problems so when they get COVID, they won't get deathly ill

  • After we heal them physically, they might start to wonder what other lies the government has fed them

  • People around the healthy start to ask what they’re doing to prevent disease in their family

42:10 More health tips

• Carbs are inflammatory

• Vegetable oils are in our pork and chicken fat because they feed them grain

  • The meat becomes high in PUFAs

    • polyunsaturated fatty acids

  • They get extra fat

• Fatty acids are unstable and were never meant to be our fuel

  • 5 tablespoons of corn oil = 96 ears of corn

  • It’s toxic, but they find ways to deodorize it

• If you try to avoid it, it’s in EVERYTHING

  • Burgers, buns, ice cream, cookies, crackers

    • A little sugar treat is fine; just make sure you’re not also eating seed oils

• Government-funded healthcare cannot fix what government-funded nutrition science broke

  • They’re pushing the anti-meat agenda with their “experts”

    • They tell people they can lessen their guilt by eating vegan

      • Vegetarian choices kill more animals than meat options

        • Wildlife is displaced and killed to make room for fields

49:00 Technology to reduce scarcity

• Not only expose people to myths about war and food

• Provide alternative energy sources

  • Low-temperature nuclear energy

    • Small, maybe neighborhood-sized

    • Won’t explode because it’s not hot, no high pressure

  • 24/7 solar panels

    • All over the house that harvests intermittent energy

  • Elemental transmutation

  • Not funded by taxpayer dollars

  • Disrupt the Middle Eastern oil deal

51:57 Government narratives

• The planet is dying; we’re the only ones who can save you

  • If we have our own energy, we’ll be more capable of surviving

• We’re the only place you can afford to get health care

  • Depend on each other and work hard

  • Learn the truth about your health

54:35 The heart of a child

• Full of wonder and imagination

• Freely loving

• Jesus didn’t listen to institutions

• Tesla got his alternative form of electricity into the world through the market

• Challenge orthodoxy

56:51 Why this isn’t happening

• Churches are afraid to step out and look quacky

• Or people know someone who’s involved in the seed oil industry

• Afraid to get involved in political issues

57:54 Tell stories of victims

• Step 1: Heal

• Step 2: Outcompete the government monopolies

• Step 3: Personalize

  • Don’t just try to convince their mind

  • Irwin Schiff 

    • Wrote books on tax evasion

    • Chained as if he posed a physical threat on his deathbed

  • Kids with dads arrested for victimless crimes

    • Cry every night

    • Grades suffer 

    • Performance in and enjoyment of activities go down

  • Just as the Gospel writers told the story of an innocent victim

1:03:35 Plugs

• Aneighborschoice.com

• Email

• Podcast

• Banned from YouTube; interview with Bob Murphy

---

Related Episodes

49. Anyone Can Be Evil with Abby Cleckner

In this episode, we are joined by long-time Bad Roman contributor, Abby Cleckner, to discuss her article from July 2020, Never Follow Orders. We are all capable of horrible things. With this knowledge in mind, It is important that each of us take responsibility for our actions, consider carefully why we are doing what we do, and don’t blame those in authority over us for our actions.

Studies have proven that the majority of people will do anything, even harm another person, if someone in authority demands or instructs them to.

Understanding that we are all susceptible to committing atrocities if we find ourselves in positions of power or under the command of those with power, enables us to be honest about the consequences of allowing individuals and organizations to acquire too much of it.

When we deny that we are capable of doing horrible things, we erroneously begin to respect the authority of another person more than that of God’s or our own values.

Abby Cleckner has contributed several articles to our blog and is now co-host for The Bad Roman Podcast! This episode was recorded before she accepted that position. You can find her on Facebook and Instagram. 

Episode Timestamps:

2:46 People are submitting to the government as if nothing bad has ever come of it

People forget things... One trip around the fishbowl, and they’re done.

There was a time in this country when people would say, ‘You can’t do that! This is America.’ You can’t say that anymore.

- Craig

4:40 The next generation

• As schools have become even more prison-like

  • Perhaps the next generation will protect their children from a similar experience

8:19 Connection between The Nuremberg Trials, The Key Takeaways of the Milgram Experiment & Vietnam Draft Objectors

• The Nazis were the ones on trial

  • Following orders is not an excuse for committing atrocities

• Most used the defense: “I was just following orders”

• Dr. Milgram wondered if the average person was susceptible to would join a movement like the Nazis? How was it that there were so many people involved? 

  • The majority of people think Nazis were unusually evil, and that they themselves would never do such crimes, under any orders.

• Milgram’s experiment provided evidence that a statistically significant amount of people are likely to carry out actions, that they may personally question, upon instruction from an authority figure.

  • “The draw to follow authority is so much more powerful than we realize.”

• In the Vietnam War Draft, one man refused to fight because of what he had learned from being part of the Milgram experiment.

Almost anyone would follow almost any order to harm someone.

- Abby, on what the Millgram Experiemnt can teach us

11:40 “Just doing their job”

• This is how we excuse police brutality

• They take an oath to the Constitution

  • and then they don't follow the Constitution; they follow orders

  • Politicians make unconstitutional laws, and the police enforce them without question

12:12 The Milgram Experiment explained

• A test to see how applicable the Nuremberg Defense is

  • How many people would do anything they were told and claim it was good because they were following orders?

  • How far would the average person go?

• The setup

  • People were told they were part of an experiment to test how punishment affects performance

    • An actor on the other side of the wall pretended to be receiving worse and worse electric shocks as they failed to perform the task

    • The participant had to push a button to administer the shocks and turn up the dial as time went on

    • Eventually, the actor starts begging to quit

    • Then they start yelling and banging on the walls

    • and then they go silent

  • Most people stopped at some point and asked if they should continue because the other person seemed to be in distress

    • The people running the experiment convinced them that it was very important that they finish the trial

  • 65% of people went all the way to the end 

    • They were willing to kill a stranger

      • Just because another stranger told them to

• Everybody thinks they'd be in the 35% who would never do that

  • That's why it's so important to know about this experiment

  • You likely wouldn't be

    • Unless we’re aware of our tendencies and consciously choose to stand up

  • It's not necessarily bad that everyone naturally follows authority

    • It keeps society running smoothly when every person isn't constantly fighting back 

16:10 The point of her article

• In every small decision, we make every day, we must ask ourselves:

  • Do I believe in this?

  • Am I only doing this because somebody told me to? 

  • How would I explain my actions to someone else?

• Take ownership of your actions

  • It is your fault, even if someone in authority ordered you to do that

• “The problem isn't the police; they're just doing their job.”

  • Police not taking responsibility is the problem

    • Yes, the politicians making bad laws is a problem, but it really wouldn't be if the people under them made their own decisions and refused to carry out orders

  • The everyday officers are the ones taking action

18:44 Christians are no better 

• Christians are willing to follow authority, even if it's harmful to someone

  • Conversation with Eloquilt will be available Feb 10, 2022

  • Politicians steal, murder, and commit all kinds of sins

    • Voting them into office is sort of like asking them to commit those sins for you

Christian culture puts authority on a pedestal

• We are taught to train our children to “respect” authority at all times

• Romans 13 spouters

  • If someone's in authority, it's because God put them there, so we have to do whatever they say

  • People quote this first and then run away before they have to defend it

Christians are kind of obsessed with authority.

- Abby

If these guys are in power because God put them there, and they're not following the laws of God, we're not supposed to obey that just because they're in power

- Craig

• People misread scripture as an easy way out

  • If you have to do whatever the authority tells you and you don't have to make difficult decisions, then you don't have to deal with the consequences or guilt.

• A common theme in the Bible is to disobey authority in order to follow God

• If you vote for someone you don't like just because you hate the other person

  • That doesn't actually make sense  

  • That's voting out of fear, not because there's someone good

    • Any decision made out of fear should be reconsidered 

23:00 He made me do it!

• Take responsibility for your actions

• Recognize that nobody can make you have an emotion

  •  or take an action

  •  or say certain words

• Practice with the small, everyday decisions

24:27 The soap opera of politics

They put in an older version of Trump

You've been told you won, so you're happy. Or you've been told you're who you lost, so you're mad.

- Abby

Nothing has changed or will change with the state.

- Craig

27:09 Muhammad Ali

• Refused the draft for Vietnam

• A lot of people called him a coward, but he went to prison for his convictions

  • Gave up his career

  • Lost his title

• Military Drafts

  • Governments forcing citizens to fight their wars

  • Why don't the leaders just duke it out?

    • Saddam Hussein offered to duel George Bush Sr.

      • He asked, why get all these people involved?

Why do thousands or millions of people have to die for problems between politicians?

- Abby

31:00 Martin Luther King Jr.

• No violence, but also no obedience

• If we live as a community and take care of each other, we can just ignore the government because we won't need anything they have to offer

  • If everyone ignores them, they will become obsolete and lose power

  • A community can provide much better than the government because they can see exactly what you need and not just give you the standard package

Everything the government does is] to increase their power. Nothing they do is benevolence or the kindness of their own heart.

- Abby

• People are getting vaccinated so they can have the freedom to travel

  • That is not freedom!

• When you see someone getting sprayed with a fire hose, and they respond calmly, you want to join them because obviously, what they're doing has meaning and a quiet power

  • The aggressor wasn't those seeking freedom; it was the state

  • The Kingdom of God is upside down like that

    • It gets power from love and non-violence

      • Not money and might

36:40 Making choices at work

I have to do things I don't agree with that work because they're paying me, but I'll raise a stink about it first and tell them why I think it's wrong and demand that they explain why it's not.

- Craig

To an extent. If I disagree with how we're getting something done, I'll still do the task the way they taught me. 

For every decision I make sure, I consciously decide what I'm going to do for myself, I have to acknowledge that I am the one making the choice, and there is still a point at which I draw the line in the sand and refuse.

 You have to recognize the strong inner pull to follow authority and practice questioning it. Recognize that you're not harmless and that you could be talked into doing horrible things.

- Abby

39:32 The government unicorn

• Most people agree that politicians are evil

  • But they still think the government is good

    • How is this possible when the government is made up of politicians?

    • People in it do horrible things, but the unicorn of government as a whole is good? 

• People think if they believe hard enough in the unicorn, things will work out in the end

• The unicorn does not exist!

Let's talk about what actually exists. What you fully admit you hate and is harming you personally. That's what the government is. It's not this unicorn that you imagined.

- Abby

• People believe that if the correct letter is by someone's name, then they have everything right because the other side is completely wrong.

• Many people on the right have an innate sense of not wanting politicians to tell them what to do

  • But at the same time, they 

    • back the blue 

    • support the troops

    • believe in authority

    • Live with strong cognitive dissonance

• People on the left see the government almost as God

  •  Someone who will provide & be benevolent

• Both tribes are cruel to the other side

42:35 The Bad Romans

• We want people who are on the fence to listen

  •  Who agree with 75% of what we say

• People need to just start thinking logically about the world

  •  About how,

    • economics work

    • government's involvement affects us

    • people's rights

• If people start off focusing on their personal responsibility, the rest will follow

  • We should never, ever tell someone else how they are allowed to live, 

    • even if our philosophy is truly better 

    • even if they’re living as a slave

  • You don't necessarily know what's best for someone else

    • God's will for them might not be what you expect and no one has perfect theology

• You're probably have changed your opinion many times 

  • So will other people

  • Don't come down on them too harshly

    • This is using your intellectual authority to make people feel stupid 

    • In the Kingdom of Heaven, we leave space for their hearts to heal

  • We didn't get where we are overnight 

• If people see us being kind, it might Inspire them to stick around

49:00 The empire will fall soon; we must be ready

• We need to come together as a voluntary society so we can take care of each other

  • Working towards a change in politicians is not going to help us, because power can corrupt even the most idealistic person

• Stanford Prison Experiment

They knew full well, it was an experiment and you were randomly chosen to be a guard or a prisoner, but yeah, their, their authoritarianism just got very quickly, really out of control.

- Abby

• We've got to move away from our cruel human nature end towards the heart of Christ

  • God created us all good

    •  But we easily end up in bondage, especially to the love of power

    • We need to be aware and on guard, because we are all capable of horrible things

About our Sponsor

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Whether you are new to crypto and DeFi or you've already begun your journey around the block...chain, Blockchain Trading Co. provides you with a community of people passionate about digital assets.

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More from Abby Cleckner

48. Meeting People Where They Are with Justin Cornett of For All Tennessee

In this episode, we take the podcast in a bit of a different direction. We are anarchists, but we've brought in someone who works within the state to improve citizens’ lives through the legislature. Justin Cornett started For All Tennessee so he can act as a go-between from citizens to their representatives.

For All TN listens to citizens’ needs and works to get them taken care of them by passing bills. This organization is different because its members vote on which issues to pursue, and the company is not controlled by money. For more information, visit For All Tennessee or email info@foralltn.org. Follow Justin on Facebook and Twitter. 

At The Bad Roman Project, we wish the state didn't exist. But the fact is, it does. I (Craig) have been learning that people won’t immediately jump to anarchy from their brainwashed state. We have to meet them where they're at. We have to find ways to make them see that they don't want to be controlled by an authority, especially one who only cares about them as long as they're contributing financially to the government.

Part of the work Justin is doing is spreading knowledge to average citizens about the unfair and unconstitutional laws they are abiding by. He opens their eyes to what the government is doing and encourages them to join him in pushing their local representatives in a different direction. This is a step towards freedom, a step towards taking control of what's ruling their lives and realizing how harmful the government is to their community. 

Timestamps:

2:43 Biden’s “Proclamation” about vaccine mandates

• It was just a press release

• Good ideas don’t require force

  • It’s a bad idea to criminalize bad decision making

• They never pushed the flu shot quite like this 

• “If they would have just let people decide on their own, more people probably would have taken this shot.” -Craig

• So much overreaction at the beginning by people on both sides of the aisle that people are now almost underactive and unwilling to put an experiment in their arms

• Biden and governors (like Texas and Florida) are making “mandates” about the vaccine – either that it can or cannot be required of specific people

  • But in Tennessee, it is a law that companies cannot require their employees to be vaccinated

    • Craig hasn’t had to choose between his livelihood and his life like so many others

    • Justin helped him talk to his politicians about it

8:30 We still live under our government

• Reality is, we live with a governmental system

  • If we want anything to happen, we have to work within that system

  •  most of the followers of the bad Roman are not ready to declare total anarchy, so we have to ease them into it a bit

  • “The world exists as it exists… If you try to operate contrary to the way the world actually works, it's not going to work out well for you.” -Justin

• Sometimes, people think they’re opposed to you

  • Until you take the time to understand them and explain more

    • And you both find they’ve said the same thing you said before, just differently

  • No one will listen to a headstrong bully

  • Jesus used love, hope, and patience to guide people to His path

    • If we don't use those tools, we will not succeed 

• Someone’s gotta work through the state; just not Craig ;)

13:44 For All Tennessee

• Takes policy ideas to the hill

• Members pay $5+/month

  • They get to vote on which issues are focused on

  • Also, people can designate their money for specific issues

• Utilizes different tactics such as pamphlets, door to door information sharing, and ads

• They do not campaign for or endorse certain politicians. They simply inform people about where all the politicians stand on important issues

• No party affiliation; just what's best for Tennessee

• “You don't fix what the government broke with more government. You can't really fix what the parties have broken with more parties, because the problem is inherent in the parties.” -Justin

• America was supposed to be self-governed through Representatives 

  • But right now there are two organizations who tell us what our options are, and we have to choose which of the 2 is less terrible

    • The only way to change that is for citizens to lean on their representatives

• Working to 

  • Find out what the citizens want 

  • Create policies

  • Lobby for representatives to vote for what do people in their district have asked 

    • If they don’t, they’ll lose votes

  • Find out what representatives think about policies and inform citizens

  • Guide people into a different mindset where they

    • Have influence over public policy

    • Don’t blindly follow government

      • They have the gift of free will 

    • Are aware of and ask for what's best for their community

  • Guide people to take a step towards freedom

• Run by this principle: get policy done that empowers people and limits government

28:23 How the founding fathers might feel about how things work now

• Rollin over in their graves

• If they were here, they’d go to war with our government

  • The federal government was never supposed to have as much power as it does

    • States were supposed to have more control

    • The federal budget is significantly higher than all the states’ budgets combined

    • The States created the federal government

      • And should therefore have more power 

    • The federal government does not constitutionally have the authority to pass a law 

      • But they've been doing it anyway for 100 years 

      • Everyone just behaves like the acts they have passed are law

33:04 Hypocrisy

• Saying we have to follow something because it's the law

  • While also dismissing laws that don't make sense

  • Or even disobeying align yourself while demanding that others get punished for it

•  Saying we should love our neighbor

  •  While also delighting in locking him up for nonviolent crimes

    •  Making his education, career, and family life a massive struggle

    •  Keeping him dependent on the state for sustenance

34:58 A new definition of politics

• Politics happens any time people interact with other people

• If you have a society full of garbage people, it is going to fail regardless of what government it has

• If you have a society full of people who truly care about others, the government won't be needed to control them

• We need a combination of 

  • A kind attitude towards each other and

  • A lack of governmental control

• We've got to focus on the goal

• We need to fix our eyes on Jesus, not what's going on in the world around us

  • Our treasure is not here on Earth 

  • But let's make the most out of what we have here

    •  While recognizing that this isn't the end for us

38:00 Working to limit police power

• Qualified immunity

  • Hasn't been voted on within the organization yet

  • They may or may not work on it, depending on the votes

• No-knock Raids

  • Worked to get 123 out of 132 votes to abolish them in TN

  • Written with police chiefs and the governor's office 

  • Tennessee already had a good record and policies in place to prevent no-knocks

    • This was just the final step

  • Police now have to report any excessive force used

  • Deescalation training is now required

40:52 Low-hanging fruit 

• Going for the policies that are already widely agreed upon

  • They are agreed upon by citizens, not necessarily representatives

  • Civil asset forfeiture

    • The government can see that you have assets and simply take them even when you have done nothing wrong

    • Many representatives see this as a necessary income stream for the government

    • Most average citizens have no idea this is a thing

      • So part of the work is to educate them and ask them to join against it

44:17 Effectiveness Analysis

• We check on the issues we worked on

• We got a bill passed on civil asset forfeiture that made the state more financially responsible when proven to be in the wrong

  • But they have a loophole

  • People are not being reimbursed for their legal fees

  • Now, we have another angle to focus on to help people

48:12 “We are nothing more than a revenue source for the government.” -Craig

• How do people not see this?

  • When a lie becomes commonplace, people just accept it

48:48 COVID migration

• People are moving to different states to escape COVID laws

  • Hopefully, those from the most extreme states don’t bring the lies they lived under with them

    • Conservatives are bad, but liberals are worse

    • Californians moving to Texas

  • In one county of TN, restaurants demanded people’s addresses in order to track their travel

• The government wants to divide and conquer us

  • We should be focusing on the similarities between groups

• Both sides want us to get vaccinated right now

  • Liberals get there by mandating what they think is good for us

  • Both are seeking gain and change culture

    • The way they want the culture to change to is different

    • Both prescribe laws for the purpose of culture shift

55:31 Plans for the new year

• Members can vote on what issues we focus on in 2022

  • Join before the deadline and get your vote in 

• If someone comes to us with $100,000 to work on a particular issue in a certain direction, we still need the approval of our members before moving forward

• As far as we know, no one else operates this way

  • If someone knows of an organization that does, please let us know so we can learn from them and be allies

• Currently, we only work in Tennessee but would love to have chapters in other states and then federally

  • Have incorporated for this reason

  • Everybody wants somebody to be doing this work 

Contact For All TN at info@foralltn.org

About our Sponsor

Blockchain Trading Co. aims to be the leading DAO (Decentralized Autonomous Organization) in DeFi (Decentralized Finance) by fostering a community for purveyors of fine digital assets.

Whether you are new to crypto and DeFi or you've already begun your journey around the block...chain, Blockchain Trading Co. provides you with a community of people passionate about digital assets.

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47. Home School: 2021 Year End Round Table

For this year’s year-end roundtable (YERT), we have six guests and friends of the podcast, each with a different view on education to have a discussion on homeschooling in 2021.

Our guests are Abby Cleckner, Kerry Baldwin, Jordan, Nathan Moon, and Chris and Karin Polk, most of who grew up attending public schools. A few of the pannel are, or have been, teachers both within and outside of the public school system. A couple of them currently offer training or courses to adults about how to think for themselves, skills they feel they see as lacking in current public curriculums.

In this episode, we ask questions like, are schools are a training ground for compliant citizens who will pull whatever lever they are told without question? Does the system set teachers and students up to struggle?

Most of the panel currently homeschool their children and view it as the only real way to protect their family values and provide an education tailored to their specific childs’ interests.

They also discuss how formal education influences people’s understandings and perspectives on how the world works, in terms of politics and social structures in society. If our public school system was created to make a compliant labor force, with no desire to question the system or learn on their own, then we must encourage our children to pursue their personal interests, to learn how to think and enable them to with the tools to do it themselves.

Control of our children’s education starts at home. Homeschooling might seem like an impossible dream but, especially in the last couple of years, families of every background have found a way, and there are endless resources for innumerable methods to teach the next generation.

Timestamps:

00:49 Announcements for 2022

• New Bad Roman sponsorship program

  • The first 10 people who sponsor the show for 4 episodes will get a 5th episode free 

  • Advertise your podcast, product, or blog

  • Tell us what you want to say: thebadromanpodcast@gmail.com

• New co-host

  • Abby Cleckner!!

    • She’s written for the blog, been on the podcast, gone on other podcasts for the bad Roman, and just been an essential part of the work we're doing

4:08 Guest introductions

• Jordan 

  • Grew up at public school in West Texas

  • Has a teaching certificate in Texas

    •  Left public schools for so many reasons

    •  Now teaches at a university model homeschool group

•  Kerry Baldwin

  • Teacher of the Socratic Method

  • Homeschool Parent

    • Three kids

    • Divorced mom 

    • Works from home

  •  Homeschooled as a kid 

    • Before it was legal in New Mexico

      • “I like to say that my education was born from civil disobedience.”

  • Socratic method

    •  AKA inquiry-based learning

    •  Courses available for middle school on up

      • For both students and teachers leading students through the method

      • Register for summer here

• Karin Polk

  • Grew up in public school

  • Stay-at-home parent

  • Homeschooling all three kids starting 11 years ago

• Chris Polk

  • Grew up in public school

  • Claims homeschooled status for himself now because he’s learning so much with his kids

    • It’s like doing school over again, but actually learning something  

• Nathan Moon

  • Had a good experience in public school

  • Most families at their church homeschooled, so they did too

  • Taught in a public school

    • Only lasted a year

• Abby Cleckner

  • Went to public school

    • K-college

    • Moved a lot

  • Had a terrible experience when she put her kids in

    • Switched to a magnet, but then moved to rural area without one 

  • Lets her older kids decide where to go to school

    • Homeschools the younger ones

    • Older ones have chosen to stay in public

    • “Homeschooling is teaching them to be self-directed and make their own decisions and use their own logic to figure things out. And so, in that vein, I feel like it's not my place to force them into what kind of schooling.”

13:28 Why are people ignorant in 2021?

• Why don't they understand how our governmental system works?

  • Didn't we learn that in public school?

    • They actually cut civics classes out of school in the 90’s

      • But it's not only young people who don't understand

  • Perhaps people are just so focused on their favorite news anchor that they don't remember facts

    • Like that an executive order from the president can't override state law, thanks to the 10th Amendment

  • Homeschool Community has grown dramatically since COVID

  • New truckers come to Chris because they want freedom, but they've never learned to think for themselves

    • They never really learned to comprehend what they're reading or do basic math for themselves

    • If they previously worked for a big corporation, all they know is how to do what they're told 

    • His students get so frustrated when he won't just give them the answer

  • It's the same at school as in corporations

    • Sit down. Shut up. And do (or learn) what I tell you.

    • Prussian model of “Just pull the lever”. You don't have to know why

  • Schools don't care if you're learning

    • You cannot be held back when you fail; you will still graduate to the next level “for social reasons”

      • So many kids wind up graduating from high school with maybe a fifth-grade-level education because they were not required to pass their classes

        • What can they be successful at?

          •  Pulling a lever

    • Teachers are likely to care, but they're held back by the administration

      • That is why so many teachers are also leaving public schools

    • Schools don't communicate with parents

      • There was a kid who had passed a total of 3 classes in all of high school, and his parents didn't find out until the school informed them that he wasn't graduating at the end of his senior year

24:24 Why are teachers leaving public schools?

• From a behavioral standpoint, if you take an underpaid overworked position and pile more work on it, people are going to want to escape that position

  • Teachers do many hours of extra work outside the classroom during the summer and at home during the school year

  • The average secondary school teacher has about 120 students they are solely responsible for teaching in their subject

    •  No support from parents

    •  Lots of red tape from admin

  • That's why teachers are always so excited for summer

  • COVID brought very different expectations to the position

    • Tons of extra work

  • So, we have a teacher shortage

• If a student is willing to take advanced classes, they might get a decent education

• Schools often hire people who don't have a teaching degree as long as they are in school to finish that degree

  • “Almost anyone can be a teacher. All you have to do is just find the Craigslist ad and dust off your transcripts. But that doesn't mean that you're a good teacher.” -Nathan

• “A lot of parents are pulling their kids from public education because they're realizing they're not receiving systematic instruction, they're receiving systematic indoctrination.” -Nathan

  • Teachers are also realizing this and are unwilling to participate

• Teachers almost never quit because they don't like teaching or because of the children

  • It’s the policies they have to follow

• This disaster started in the 1800's when we changed our education system

  • Suddenly, professionals/the state were responsible for teaching our children rather than their parents

  • It contributes to the breakdown of the family

  • Parents don't know how their kids are doing in school

    • Teachers watch the children failing, and are tied down by policies that prevent them from intervening

32:18 The roles of students and teachers

• “When we talk about education, we are talking about what the adults are doing for the kids, but. We're not talking about what the kids are doing in order to learn. And this is, I think, a mistake.” -Kerry

  • Students’ interest is essential

    • Even the greatest teacher cannot teach students who don't care about the subject

• Teachers: architects or gardeners?

  • Architects build a very specific product

    • This is what public schools want teachers to be

  • Gardners feed and tend to their plants, which will not come out looking identical 

    • Provide the environment; it's up to the plants to grow

• Whose responsibility is it to make the school look good?

  • “Administrators and bureaucrats put a ton of pressure on teachers, teachers, in turn, put a ton of pressure on kids and parents, parents put a ton of pressure on kids and kids are carrying the education systems on their backs.” -Kerry

• “Education is learning how to learn so that you can teach yourself whatever it is that you want to teach yourself.” -Kerry 

  • It isn’t learning a bunch of facts

    • It's learning why those facts are important

  • Parents aren't going to know everything, so it's important the kids know how to learn on their own or alongside their parent

41:13 Curriculum

• A curriculum that worked well for one kid is not likely to work well for all of them

  • Don't expect to use the same one for all of your children

  • We cannot recommend a curriculum that will work well for every child

• Many new homeschool parents seek to replicate public school at home

  • Everyone gets burned out

  • The parents feel like failures

  • Breathe and just go with what they're interested in.

    • They will learn naturally

    • “Keep it simple, Stupid.” -Chris 

43:35 How has education influenced what we've seen happening these last couple years?

• Public schools don't teach how to analyze a text

  • People have not been critically reading the articles they consume

    • They don't know how to tell what information is important and how to apply it to their life

• Even a lot of homeschool curriculum is just filling in bubbles with the right information

• Instead of bullet points and boring charts, information should be narrative

  • That's what humans naturally are; that's how we've always learned 

• When kids are learning about their personal interests, they learn a lot more quickly and in-depth than when a tired teacher is trying to reach 30 students who don't want to be there every day

• Kids also need more time to play and learn that way

  • Developmentally, they simply cannot be expected to sit still for 8 hours every day with only two 15-minute breaks

    • Actually, adults shouldn't be expected to do that either!

•  Homeschoolers can go as in-depth on a topic if they want

  •  They’ll learn more than just the public school propaganda:

    • This bad thing happened in history, but America swooped in and saved the day. The end.

• If a student wants to learn more about a topic or keep reading, that's seen as a problem, and they “need to learn to work on their transitions”; to comply with the system better 

  • Kids aren't allowed to enjoy learning, so they quit trying

  • They're rewarded for pulling the lever, not for exploring why the lever is there

  • Learning is not encouraged; compliance is

• MAGA makes sense when you think of the public school history propaganda

  • We all learned that, especially back in the 40s and 50s, America solved all the world's problems and was a prosperous nation

    • “They're too dumb to know they're dumb” -Jordan

  • But now schools have swung away from this teaching

    •  Changed to: America is the worst. White people are the worst. 

  • The only way you'll have control over what your children learn and the values instilled in their brains is to home-school them

    • A lot of people think there's no way they can homeschool their kids

      • They are losing free babysitting

      • There’s the pressure to succeed that comes from government requirements for teachers, schools, and students

      • But the lesson time takes half as long

      • All types of parents have found a way to succeed

    • If you know the Socratic method, you can learn even from the most terrible, one-sided curriculum

      • Because you’ll know how to ask the right questions

• Media represented by talking heads who were taught what to think

• But there are exciting technologies coming

  • Like blockchain

  • We can get ourselves and our kids ahead of the game by learning about it while most students are busy being indoctrinated

1:10:07 Options for homeschooling

• University Model

  •  Kids go into a small school 2 or 3 days a week

  •  The other days, they are at home doing their homework 

• Or at least find a co-op of other parents who can support your journey

• YOU ARE QUALIFIED TO TEACH YOUR CHILD

• There are so many tools available for all different styles of learning

• We don't need the Department of Education

  • They were only established in the 70s

  • Our education system would probably improve if they went under because everyone would be homeschooling 

  • It's actually unconstitutional and should never have existed 

1:14:03 Final Thoughts & Where to Connect with our Guest

• Nathan

  • Homeschooling is possible for your family. You can find a way

    • Even if you don't do it, do take a greater interest in your child's education

    • Take the initiative

  • Theology Writings 

  • Fiction Writing and Poetry 

    • Children can send submissions here, and I’ll post them

• Chris

  •  We should get disgruntled teachers to open little schools

  • Trucking company, Blue Ribbon Logistics

  • Podcast

•  Jordan

  • You can't do it wrong

    • If you're considering changing your child's schooling, you clearly love them and want what's best for them

    • Follow your gut

    • They are your child, given to you because you would know how to care for them

• Kerry

  • Socratic Method Courses

  • Email

• Abby

  • The homeschool community continues to grow exponentially

  • Even people who are fans of the public school system have criticisms

  • COVID regulations have made schools into literal prisons

  • Find me on the Bad Roman podcast!

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46. Who is your God? with ian minielly

Former Green Beret Ian Minielly joins us in this episode to talk about Christians and the military. Ian joined the army after college because he didn’t have a better direction for his life. After many years, he became a Christian and chose not to reenlist. Ian now serves as a Southern Baptist Pastor and has written several books about different issues, and encourages young Southern Baptist church kids not to join the military.

As Christians, we are called to love, not kill. Ian has seen firsthand how the work our military does is not accomplishing any good; it is harming innocent people -- both the foreign nationals and the US soldiers. He is a Southern Baptist pastor now and works to change people’s perspective on the state and how it relates to Jesus and the church.

ABOUt our Sponsor

Blockchain Trading Co. aims to be the leading DAO (Decentralized Autonomous Organization) in DeFi (Decentralized Finance) by fostering a community for purveyors of fine digital assets.

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Timestamps:

2:50 How Ian got here

•   Didn’t like the life timeline presented to him

  • Career, 2 marriages, retirement, pain, death

  • So, he joined the army

    • Infantry → Green Beret

    • Found Jesus

      • Told Him, “If my unit doesn’t kill a soul this deployment, I will not re-enlist.”

        • They didn’t kill a soul.

      • Went to seminary (for free)

      • Now in full-time ministry

8:50 War

• “What we're doing has nothing to do with what Jesus asked us to do… He didn't ask us, he commanded us to love our neighbor. That includes not killing them, I would suppose, right?” -Craig

• What the military does overseas has nothing to do with Jesus

  • In fact, they command you to not share Him with anyone while you’re deployed

    • So, Ian left a box of sermon tapes with a local contact at the end of one deployment

15:42 Guns

• Passivism

• Craig bought a gun to shoot intruders, but now, only shoots recreationally

  • “That’s not an invitation for anybody to come and give me any trouble. I’ll give you a hug. I’m not gonna shoot you, but I’ll give you a hug.” - Craig

• Ian is a militant pacifist

  • “I'm not going to kick in your door and shoot you, but I might shoot you if you kick mine in.” - Ian

    • Unless you’re just stealing

• Argument: I’m being violent toward my family members if I let someone else attack them

  • “If somebody comes to try and mess with my cats, we're going to have a problem. I'm not gonna shoot you, but we're gonna wrestle.” - Craig

  • You can harm someone without killing them

    • Martial arts

    • Break their arm

    • Stop them from harming others, but do not kill

21:03 The Violence of Government

• Love your neighbor

  • It’s not loving to put somebody bad in charge of them

    • US government is repeatedly guilty of mass murderer

    • Everyone thinks their side is the lesser of two evils

      • They’re both evil.

22:27 Jesus is the Epitome of Everything a Bad Roman Wants to Be

• “When the Messiah shows up and he is nothing like what they are looking for, they totally miss him because they’re looking for majesty and a big white horse and a crown and a sword. And he shows up wearing flip flops and a robe and saying, ‘Love your neighbor.’” -Ian

• 5 Controversies

  • 22:45 1. Jesus forgives and heals a lame man (Mark 2:1-12)

    • Only God has the authority to forgive sins

      • He proved He had the authority by healing

        • If Jesus is God, that means He’s the Messiah

          • If He’s the Messiah, that means He wasn’t there to conquer and give the Jews power

          • He was giving the Kingdom to the lowly

          • His goal was not to glorify the religious leaders

          • American Christians would gladly crucify Him today, just as the Jews did then

  • 26:43 Sidetrack: Do we love our neighbors?

    • We hear that preached all the time, but has it actually clicked?

    • Do even love Jesus?

    •  We love Jesus as if he in the state are equal partners

      • We've lost our first love

    • Church attendance and baptism numbers are low

    • Most pastors are thrilled to have our troops deployed

      •  Ian is a unicorn

  • 28:13 2. Jesus associates with sinners (Mark 2:13-17)

    • Pharisees wonder if a righteous man can do that because he’d get soiled

      • Christians today act the same way

        • Churches rejecting gay people

      • Jesus hung out with

        • Gay people

        • Prostitutes

        • Druggies

    • Where can we hear the Word of God preached without hate?

    • What people do is none of my business. I've been instructed to love 

    • Much of the church outside the Jewish community started out practicing homosexuality as part of their religious life

      • If the church had always blocked out gay people from entering, there would not be a church today

    • Southern Baptist churches would not perform a gay wedding, but they welcome anyone of any lifestyle in the door

      • If they're not allowed in the church to hear the Word, how are they going to find Jesus?

      • The Pharisees kept those people away

        • Their power depended on division

          • They had to make the distinction that they were better than others

          • Very little faith involved

        • Jesus ate with them

          • They heard His message because He saw them

    • Another example: Woman caught in adultery (John 8:1-11)

      • Pharisees test Jesus

        • The Law says to stone her to death

        • Jesus asks whoever has never sinned to throw the first stone

          • They all walk away

        • He tells the lady she’s forgiven and to stop sinning

          • Clean slate

          • Even when we do it again, we get another clean slate and encouragement to try again

          • He forgives every single type of sin

          • Other people’s sins are none of our business

  • 37:30 3. Jesus’ disciples aren’t fasting (Mark 2:18-22)

    • Pharisees point it out so people will see Him as a bad Jew

    • Fasting was a very visible practice

      • Makes one look righteous

    • Jesus says they’re not fasting because He is with them

      • They’ll fast when He leaves

      • We’re in a fast from Jesus, waiting for His return

  • 40:00 4. Keeping the Sabbath (Mark 2:23-28)

    • Pharisees tried to make Jesus look unworthy because He and His followers weren't keeping the Sabbath rules

    • Jesus showed them at the Sabbath is a gift to man, not about rule-following

    • They had taken God's rules and elevated them above God

      • The Sabbath is meant to help us grow closer to God

  • 41:25 5. Doing good on the Sabbath (Mark 3:1-6)

    • Jesus healed the man with the crippled hand

      • Violated the regulations

    • It's always the right time to do good

      • You don't take a Sabbath from doing good

      • It's never time to do wrong

  • Making the world a better place is simple: just love each other

43:27 Churches are empty because we’ve made the state the highest god

• God gets relegated to Sundays and maybe Wednesdays

• Nobody wants to believe in Somebody that we don’t actually believe in

• Faithfulness to God almost always means we won't be faithful to the government

• We essentially have a national church because we back up everything the United States government does

  • People can't see (or won't admit) that everything it does is evil

  • They support the troops

• The five controversies basically boil down to this: Where do you put the state/your governing authority and where do you put God?

45:53 Connection between church and military

• Southern Baptist churches are the number one biggest supporter of the military

  • They believe it honorable to send their kids to fight overseas

  •  Why are they the strongest supporters? 

    • What are they hearing in Sunday School? 

    • What is going wrong with the way we pray and preach?

    • Why do they want to send their kids over to fight people who don't even want to fight us?

• If only Air Force planes dropped Bibles instead of bombs

• Helping kids decide not to join the military

  • Only one Ian talked to still signed up

  • Telling them the statistics of divorces, alcoholism, and infidelity among military spouses

  • Proving that our governments never been right about anything, and killing the people they tell you to won't accomplish anything

    •  Where did we get the right to go into another country and kill people?

51:01 Who are we fighting?

• Afghani villagers came across American troops and thought they must be Russian. They didn't know anything about 9-11 or even where New York was

  • Do the Christians supporting these wars understand that the people in these countries have nothing to do with what we’re supposedly fighting about?

    • We're destroying their land, and they've never even heard of us

  • Our troops traveled around and millions of dollars of equipment with guns pointing in all directions from their tanks

    • The only people around were unarmed villagers wearing flip-flops and simple robes who just wanted to sit around and enjoy life

  • Many suicide bombers were coerced into doing it

    •  Oftentimes, their families were tied up at gunpoint

    • OR They are angry because the Americans killed their family, so they are getting revenge

• God is everywhere in Afghanistan

  •  but will those people ever accept Jesus since He's associated with our country?

  •  Will they ever listen to an evangelist?

57:35 DHS is a terrible part of the government

• Carlos Morales used to work for CPS; now speaks against them

  • Legally Kidnapped book

• Ian’s book about his foster daughter

59:15 Ian’s other books

• Revoked Consent

  • Story about fighting the government and winning

• The Genetic God

  • Story about people finding evidence for God in their DNA

• Train, Deploy, and Report

  • Book on evangelism

45. Radically Following Jesus with Shane Claiborne

In this episode, Shane Claiborne joins us to talk about living like Jesus, abortion, gun violence, Christian nationalism, and whether we should get involved in politics as a way to help others live in freedom. 

We know the teachings of Jesus, but what does it look like to actually follow them? How can we care for other humans as God instructed, and how can we do that when we live amidst a corrupt and often unjust government? As Shane points out, “If anybody should be suspicious of state power, it should be Christians who worship an executed and risen savior.” Our Lord was killed by the government. We should not trust in our rulers, but in Him, but, as Shane would argue, we can use their system to help people by getting bad policies changed.

Who is Shane Claiborne? He is a radical advocate for living as if Jesus really meant what He said. He heads up an intentional, simple-living Christian community called Red Letter Christians, and is the co-founder of The Simple Way, an intentional neighborhood-based Christian community in North Philadelphia. Shane has been to jail multiple times while advocating for the poor and against war. You can connect with him on his personal website, Twitter, email, and Instagram. 

About our sponsor

Blockchain Trading Co. aims to be the leading DAO (Decentralized Autonomous Organization) in DeFi (Decentralized Finance) by fostering a community for purveyors of fine digital assets.

Whether you are new to crypto and DeFi or you've already begun your journey around the block...chain, Blockchain Trading Co. provides you with a community of people passionate about digital assets.

Click to Join the discord server today!

Timestamps:

1:26 What following Jesus looks like

• “Man, I was pretty together, met Jesus, and He messed me up.” -Shane

  • Teachings like

    • To be great, become the least

    • Love your enemies

    • Sell possessions and give to the poor

  • Started a community for local homeless people who were being evicted from a church. They

    • Fix up abandoned houses

    • Create gardens

    • Paint murals

    • Care for neighbors’ needs 

7:24 Pro-life or just anti-abortion?

• “We shouldn't be in other countries dropping bombs on people” -Craig

• One-issue voting is inconsistent

• Christians are the obstacle to progress

9:45 A Bible in one hand; a newspaper in the other

•  Know what's going on in the world around you

• “When you look at Jesus, He was talking about the Kingdom of God coming on Earth, as it is in Heaven. Not just something we go up to when we die, but something we bring down while we're alive.” - Shane

• Study the Bible and sociology together

11:41 Christian Nationalism

• Trump didn’t change the church; he revealed their true beliefs 

• “A lot of white Christians have been shaped more by whiteness than by Christ.” -Shane

• People use the Gospel to justify all kinds of atrocities

• Reconstructing the Gospel: Finding Freedom from Slaveholder Religion by Jonathan Wilson-Hartgrove

• Compare Trump and his policies to The Sermon on the Mount

• Christians betrayed Jesus with a kiss for a couple seats on the Supreme Court

• Welcome the stranger -- not because you're Republican or Democrat, but because you follow Jesus, and that is His example

• “A lot of times it's been more Fox news or a political party that's shaping our imagination than the Gospel” -Shane

• Christians wind up saying ugly things like that they want to go to the border and shoot people when they follow Trump instead of Christ

19:15 Nothing new

• People fear the transfer of power from white people

  • They want to take America back; to make it great again

    • To counteract any progress Black Lives Matter made

• Fear and love cannot occupy the same space 

  • “What would America look like if love rather than fear were compelling our policies and shaping our minds on a lot of these things?” -Shane

22:45 Debate: Do we need to get involved in politics to love our neighbor?

• Shane: Laws can either improve or destroy people's lives

  •  We need to work to get harmful laws changed for the good of our neighbor

• Craig: Politics are not our thing; we're of a different Kingdom

  •  Jesus didn't use politics to advance His agenda

• Shane: Opting out has consequences

  • We're not putting our hope in a politician; we’re voting to change policies that make life harder for our friends

  • Vote on behalf of those Jesus blessed

    • The poor, the mourning, the refugees, the incarcerated... 

  • Don't only help them through the ballot. Work every day for their freedom.

  • Fight for laws that make it harder to kill them

• Craig: Ballots don't do that. Voting doesn't change anything and doesn't help anyone.

• Shane: We should use every weapon we have; harness the principalities 

• Craig: Christians live on the fringes of society and shouldn't be involved in the system at all

• Shane: Moving to a community with black folks changed my perspective

  • Dr. King went to jail for political change 

  • “I do believe that the church is a primary instrument for God transforming the world.”

  • God can redeem the system using us

  • Legislation helps people flourish

    • We use it to keep people safe in cars; need for guns too

    • Jesus judges nations on how they cared for the poor

31:14 The early Church’s politics

• They were called atheists because they denied the deity of Rome

• They disrupted the empire by claiming another Emperor

• But Jesus didn’t kill anyone to overthrow the empire

  • He died.

  • And many details leading to His death can be seen as a parody to Caesar’s rule

• “If anybody should be suspicious of state power, it should be Christians who worship an executed and risen Savior.” - Shane

• Irreconcilable vocations

  • Brothel, executioner, anyone who had to kill for the state

    • Jesus said love your enemies, which means not killing them

• They were consistently against all violence

  • Abortion, execution, gladiators…

36:09 Living like Christians

• People use the Bible to justify terrible things

• We cannot live like a Christian and go against the teachings of Christ

• Gandhi wished we would. He liked Jesus, but was not a fan of the church

• We should view the entire Bible’s contents through the lens of Jesus 

39:13 Guns into Gardens Project; Beating Guns book

• Old Testament prophets speak of turning swords into plows

  • Similarly, turning guns into garden tools

    • And crosses

      • One says I want to kill; the other says I’m willing to die

    • And jewelry for victims of gun violence to wear and sell

  • People say it's not a gun problem; it's a heart problem

    • It's both

    • God transforms the heart; people transform the laws

  • Jesus should inspire us to protect life

42:04 The American Revolution

•   Claimed to be following God

  •  If they were, they never would have gone to war 

  • America began with guns. It's impossible to imagine our country without them

    • How else could they have started a country on stolen land with stolen labor?

42:56 Red-letter Christian Intentional Community

• A glimpse of Heaven on Earth

• Sharing everything in common end taking care of each other

• Reducing gun violence through:  

  • Hospitality

  • Drug addiction recovery

  • Lifting people out of the ditch

    • Figure out what's landing them in the ditch in the first place

      • It’s often government laws and policies

        • So we vote and advocate for change

• It'll probably land you in jail 

  • Charged with a felony for leaving water in the desert for immigrants 

  • Obey the good laws; disobey the bad ones

    • Expose how crazy they are by loudly getting in trouble 

    • A rich tradition of civil disobedience 

    • Be willing to suffer the consequences of exposing injustice

• Issues around the world

  • Yemen, Iraq, Afghanistan…

    • Preemptive Love

• We spend more on the military than social uplift and are headed for spiritual death 

44. Love without Politics with Bruxy Cavey

Bruxy Cavey is a Canadian pastor working with The Meeting House, a church with roots in the Anabaptist movement. He has written a book about having a relationship with Jesus called The End of Religion. You can find him on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and bruxy.com. 

Satan has always been after Christians and works to seduce them with power, he convinces people they can make their country more Christian through politics. He pushes us to seek religion rather than relationship. Bruxy is here today to teach about a different way to change the world-- the way the Anabaptists follow; the way of love and non-violence; the way of Jesus. Anabaptists believe politics has nothing to do with Jesus. We should ignore what the government is doing and focus on our Kingdom mission, which is to love people and introduce them to Love Himself. You can find more about the anabaptists’ background and beliefs here: Radical Reformation Teaching. 

Timestamps: 

6:00 Political Identity

• Is in Jesus’ Kingdom

• “This is a threatening concept, to say ‘Jesus is inviting us into a whole new way of finding our ethnic and national and political identities in this world: the Good News of the Kingdom.’ That means we've got a king-- that's Jesus. And it also means that we are citizens of a different way of being in this world.” -Bruxy

6:57 Ambassadors 

• Less of an American citizen, and more a citizen of the Jesus Nation 

• “I’m not here to be a good Canadian; I’m here to be an ambassador to Canada” -Bruxy

8:00 A Threat to the Establishment

• “If Christians aren't a threat to the state, then we're probably not living like we're supposed to be.” -Craig

• Jesus threatened:

  • The religious leaders by giving grace and taking away people’s need for sacrifice

  • The political leaders by claiming to be King

    • They mocked him with royal clothes

      • But it was all true

      • “He is being crowned king of the alternative kingdom that doesn't overcome the world through might and power. It overcomes the world through suffering.” 

      • The cross was His coronation ceremony

11:49 Christian Nation

• America has many Christian ideals at its root

  • Therefore people think it is a Christian nation

  • “The whole idea is oxymoronic. I mean, there's no such thing as a Christian nation. The people are Christians or not Christians, but nations are not Christians unless it's the Jesus nation, the alternative Kingdom.” -Bruxy

• “Jesus doesn't teach his followers how to use their power to govern well.” -Craig

  • Our goal is not to elect a Christian politician

    • It is to love others better

    • “coercive power may have its place in a secular state, but not in the kingdom of Christ.” -Bruxy

  • People who want to be seen as good Christian politicians must look to Moses/the Old Testament for Biblical support of their actions

    • Jesus does not offer advice on how to govern

    • We don’t follow Moses; we follow Jesus

16:27 Contradictory Bible?

• The Old Testament seems to say one thing, but the New Testament says the opposite

• Jesus cut a new covenant; things changed

  • “That's why it's a bit of a misuse of the Bible to say, Well, I found this in the Bible… So I guess it's for today.”  -Bruxy

  • The Bible is a story of going from an old religious way to the way of freedom and love

  • “And of course, if we're not Jewish, it never was our covenant in the first place. We enter the story of God's people through Jesus.” -Bruxy

18:50 God is Love

• “If you want to get to know what God is like, just stare at Jesus and you get to know.” -Bruxy

• The universe was birthed because of Love

  • To be in sync with Love is to be in sync with the reason for the universe

•  It’s very simple; follow Jesus. Love.

  • When we make it more complicated, we make it complicated for people to find Him

23:17 The Problem of Power

• Basically, everything that distracts us from love can be boiled down to one thing: power

• We think we're going to solve The World's problems in our own power rather than just being humble and accepting God's gift

• The devil doesn't fret if we believe in God; he offers religion to distract us with power

• That's why every generation has a movement of people who go back to simplicity

25:50 Anabaptists

• Amish, Mennonite, and Anabaptists come from the same root

• “Repent” means to rethink and renew

  • It's a lifelong commitment to be willing to repent anytime you find something isn't right

  • Anabaptist is the renewal movement

  • “You gotta be willing to rethink some of the stuff you’ve assumed is Christian.” -Bruxy

•  The Catholics needed to repent, so some of them started the Protestant church

  •  But their idea was that Christians needed to follow the Bible

    •  The Bible can be used to justify just about anything

    •  They continued to fight wars and be tied to governments

    • Many wars were against the Catholics

    • The Anabaptist movement was born during this time

    • They focused on Jesus and were pacifists

    • They were persecuted by both the Protestants and Catholics for having different views

    • Then, some of them ran to America and hunkered down to try to be invisible

    • They chose not to interact with society

    • Amish & Mennonite

34:08 No Violence

• “It’s ok to die for a cause, but it’s not ok to kill for a cause.”

• Change from coercion, fighting, and laws to Holy Spirit’s guidance and fruit of the Spirit

• People will think you’re nuts for not defending yourself

• Passivists aren’t necessarily hippies in the forest waving flags

• “Peace should not just be the goal that you’re trying to achieve by any means necessary… Peace is the way to achieve the goal.” -Bruxy

  • Practice for the goal as you work toward its achievement

• Peaceful response to violence

  • If they hit you, calmly provide them an opportunity to hit you again

  • If they make you carry something for a mile, choose to carry it for two

    • “That first mile was slavery. The second mile is freedom.” -Bruxy

    • It shows them love

    • It might cause them to realize how cruel they are being to a fellow human

    • Defy their expectations

• “We tend to forget the effect you can have on a person's life by not killing them.” -Craig

• “The only way we can change hearts is through love. Not through the love of power.” -Bruxy 

40:55 Are Anabaptists Anti-State?

• Both Catholics and Protestants were fused with their governments

  • Whenever they found someone guilty of being a heretic, the state would have a trial and kill them for the church

  • This was like the Old Covenant where God was the religious leader of a nation

    • The anabaptists want to follow Jesus in the New Covenant

    • So, they chose to ignore what the state is doing and they separated from it

43. Christianity, Anarchism & The Lord of The Rings with Caleb Kesterson

In this episode, Craig speaks with Caleb Kesterson about his journey to Christian-Anarchy, what the Anabaptist can teach us about Christianity, and his articles, Tolkien and the Night Watchmen State and Tolkein and Power. 

Caleb is passionate about peace and was raised in Assemblies of God tradition before finding alignment with the anti-war and Jesus-centric approach of the Anabaptist. He now runs a home church, in an effort to foster discipleship and bring the teachings of Christ into the larger society. 

Craig and Caleb finish their conversation by exploring Tolkien’s The Lord of the Rings, and what Tolkien has to teach us through the novels about a voluntary society. We all know the books are better than the movies, and thankfully Caleb is here to give us that insight for a Christian-anarchist perspective.

You can connect with Caleb on Twitter @CalebMK5 and find his articles on the Bad Roman Blog.

Timestamps & starting points:

1:51 Caleb’s Background

• Bruxy Cavey & Scott Horton

• Works Agriculture

• Runs a home church

• Assemblies of God to Anabaptist

4:16 Anabaptist, the State & the Early Church

• Anti War movement

• Postcards from Babylon Documentary

• Caleb wants to see an Anabaptism that goes out into the world and meets people where they are vs. isolates 

• Keith Giles, Jesus Untangled

11:49 How Caleb found the Bad Roman Project

• Don’t always see anarchy, Christianity, and peace together

13:55 Christian Right vs. Christian Left

• “Punch people in the mouth lovingly” 

• Left is honest about Tyranny, Right more secretive; but both do the same things

• Trump vs. Obama supporters

• January 6th was trying to keep their master in office

21:00 Absurdities of Statism

• Biden bombing Syria and not ending “conflict” in Yemen vs. what he said

• Lysander Spooner - defensive voting

• Fallacy of defensive voting

  • You are still voting for someone to have power over your neighbor

• Fear voting is the worst voting

• Endorsing tyrannical actions overseas and at home

• Antiwar.com

• “Shooting people at the borders” is not a Christian sentiment

 26:35 Craig’s Social Media Strategy for making people think

• Baiting conversation, not to change minds, but for the curious ones in the comments

• Showing concern for QAnon supporters mental health 

28:26 Is Craig in a cult?

• Many ways to read the bible

  • Anabaptists start with what Jesus said/did and work from there

• Jesus, “you’ve seen me you see the father”

• Let’s get back to Jesus

• Jesus came not to cause division

  • With 30,00 denominations there is clearly some division

32:05 Caleb’s First Article:

• Disclaimer: Caleb is not a Tolkien expert

• Minarchism

• Tolkien’s Shire is voluntary

  • Hardly any positions in government

  • There is a sheriff

  • A governor 

  • Hierarchy established through family origin 

• rangers chose to protect the land they are not forced

38:37 Article #2: Tolkien and Power

• Gandolf’s rejection of the ring and the pitfalls of power

• John 6 Jesus rejects being king over people by force

• Matthew 25 Jesus explains his new kingdom

• 1 Corinthians 127