121. Israel of the Bible vs Today's Nation State Waging Genocide in Gaza and How to Get Back to Jesus with Grace Batchoun

About this Episode

Is the world turning a blind eye to the plight of Palestinians? Grace Batchoun, a Christian and Co-founder of Canadians for Justice and Peace in the Middle East, joins Craig for a deeply personal conversation about the ongoing Occupation of the Palestinian people and genocide in Gaza. Grace shares her journey as a Palestinian Christian and highlights the dire situation in Gaza, challenging the narrative of Israel's self-defense. 

Grace and Craig emphasize the need for Christians to align with the teachings of Jesus by advocating for peace and justice over death and destruction. Grace deconstructs the ongoing expansion of settlements, which defy international law and United Nations resolutions. How does this impact the lives of those in the region? The conversation unpacks the complexities of everyday life brought on by the Israeli Occupation of Palestinians, urging listeners to reconsider their perspectives and recognize the humanity of Palestinians. 

The current humanitarian crisis and genocide in Gaza is another focal point. The severe conditions caused by Israeli blockades and refusal to work toward a ceasefire agreement—continuing the unending starvation, destroyed infrastructure, and families in distress. What does this mean for the people living there, and how can the international community respond?

Craig and Grace also examine the role of evangelical Christian support for Israel. Does this stance align with the teachings of Jesus on peace and justice, or does it contradict them? Through personal stories and historical context, this episode offers a Palestinian perspective on displacement and life under occupation.

Finally, the discussion sheds light on the broader implications of Israel's actions on international law and human rights. How do these actions measure up against the conventions established after World War II? Listen to this episode of the Bad Roman Podcast and join the conversation online as we navigate these challenging topics, encouraging listeners to reflect on justice, peace, and the power of global solidarity.

Learn More about Palestine:

Canadians for Justice and Peace in the Middle East

Episode Timestamps:

(0:22) Addressing the Gaza Crisis

• Craig expresses concern over the escalating situation in Gaza

• mainstream narrative that frames Israel as merely defending itself against terrorism.

(2:07) Grace Batchoun’s Background

• Grace shares her family's history as Palestinian refugees and her journey to Canada.

• Her parents were expelled from Palestine in 1948, leading to a life of displacement and eventual settlement in Canada.

• Grace discusses her Christian faith, which she embraced through InterVarsity Christian Fellowship and her active role in church ministries.

(4:09) Awakening to Activism

• Grace recounts a pivotal moment in 2002 that shifted her focus from personal life to activism, following a tragic incident in Jenin.

• The story of Jamal Fayid a paraplegic man crushed by an Israeli tank sparked her involvement in humanitarian efforts.

• This incident led to her collaboration with World Vision and the founding of Canadians for Justice and Peace in the Middle East.

(6:41) Humanitarian vs. Occupation Crisis

• Grace emphasizes the need to address the root cause of the conflict: the occupation.

• She argues that the issue is not merely humanitarian but deeply political, rooted in military oppression and land colonization.

• The ongoing occupation perpetuates suffering and prevents any lasting peace or resolution.

(9:07) Misinterpretations Among Christians

• Common misinterpretation among Christians regarding Israel as a nation state versus a biblical concept.

• Grace and Craig stress the importance of understanding the biblical context, where Israel is seen as a spiritual entity rather than a modern nation state.

• Confusion among Christians who equate biblical Israel with the current political state.

(12:12) The Reality of Gaza

• Grace provides stark statistics on the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, including the destruction of infrastructure and the high number of casualties, particularly among women and children.

• Gaza as one of the most densely populated areas, suffering from severe shortages of basic necessities.

• The blockade and military actions have led to a dire humanitarian situation, with widespread destruction and loss of life.

(16:30) Genocide or Defense?

• The actions of Israel meet the definition of genocide.

• international legal definitions of genocide and how they apply to the current situation.

• Challenges the narrative that frames Israel's actions as self-defense, highlighting the disproportionate impact on civilians.

(19:01) Personal Stories and Historical Context

• Grace shares her family's displacement and the broader historical context of Palestinian expulsion and land loss.

• She recounts her family's experiences of being expelled from their home and the ongoing struggle for recognition and rights.

• The historical context of the 1948 Nakba and subsequent conflicts is discussed to provide a deeper understanding of the current situation.

(25:56) The Ongoing Occupation

• Grace details the continued expansion of Israeli settlements and the impact on Palestinian lives, drawing parallels to historical injustices.

• systematic displacement of Palestinians and the appropriation of their land for settlements.

• legal and ethical implications of the occupation and the international community's response.

(33:07) Misconceptions About Hamas

• Both speakers clarify that their stance is not in support of Hamas but rather in defense of human rights and international law.

• a common misconception that criticism of Israel equates to support for Hamas.

• The focus is on advocating for the rights and dignity of all people, regardless of political affiliations.

(36:09) International Response and U.S. Influence

• Grace discusses the global response to the conflict and the significant role of U.S. support for Israel, which she argues hinders peace efforts.

• The influence of U.S. foreign policy and military aid in perpetuating the conflict is examined.

• Grace calls for reevaluating international support and a push for genuine peace initiatives.

(41:32) The Role of Christians and the Church

• Craig and Grace critique the church's role in perpetuating misconceptions and call for a return to Jesus' teachings, focusing on peace and justice.

• They discuss the responsibility of Christians to challenge unjust systems and advocate for the oppressed.

• need for the church to be a voice for peace and reconciliation

(48:22) Call to Action

• Grace urges Christians to advocate for peace and justice, emphasizing the need for awareness and action against the ongoing occupation and humanitarian crisis.

• She calls for a collective effort to educate and mobilize communities to support human rights.

• The importance of speaking out and taking a stand against injustice is highlighted as a core Christian value.

(54:14) Personal Transformation and Advocacy

• Grace reflects on her journey from personal focus to activism, highlighting the importance of individual action in the face of global issues.

• She shares her experiences of overcoming apathy and becoming a vocal advocate for justice.

• The transformative power of personal stories and the impact of grassroots activism 

(1:02:11) Closing Thoughts

• Craig and Grace conclude with a call for continued advocacy and awareness, stressing the importance of speaking out against injustice.

• They encourage listeners to educate themselves and others about the realities of the conflict.

• The episode ends with a reminder of the power of collective action and the potential for change.

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96. Christian-Palestinian: Unveiling the Obscured Narrative with Daniel Bannoura

About this Episode

Get ready for an insightful and heart-wrenching journey as we chat with Daniel Benora, a Christian Palestinian, who gives us an inside look into the longstanding conflict between Israel and Palestine. With a direct line to the ground reality, Daniel candidly shares the pain and terror experienced by his friends and family in Gaza due to Israeli attacks. Hear the unfiltered narrative of Palestinians, both Christian and Muslim, who have been overshadowed in the Western world, as we delve into the complexities of this ongoing strife.

Daniel courageously unravels the obscured narrative of Palestinians, both Christian and Muslim, demonstrating the importance of understanding the dynamics of this ongoing strife. How do we stay informed when the Western media narrative leans heavily in favor of one side? The conversation deepens as we probe into the biased portrayal of the Middle East in the media, exposing its racist undertones. Together with Daniel, we dissect the colonial mentality and its aftermath, scrutinizing how it frames the Middle East as backward and violent. We also delve into the implications of Zionism, the British Empire's role in Jewish migration to Palestine, opening up the discussion to the way it's used to justify violence against Palestinians. 

As we draw toward the end of our conversation, we venture into the stormy waters of violence, faith, and pacifism within the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Daniel reveals the inspiring ways Palestinian Christians channel faith into nonviolent resistance against injustice. We wrap up by challenging the misconceptions surrounding God and his people, urging Christians to seek truth, justice, and love over violence and ignorance. 

 Join us as we reveal how the media, the US government, and the Church perpetuate this idea, all the while emphasizing the importance of nuance in understanding this conflict. Here's a chance to challenge your perspectives and possibly transform your understanding of the Israeli-Palestinian plight.

Connect with Daniel:

• Across the Divide Podcast

• Google Docs Resource

• Listen to Daniel on Theology in the Raw

Episode Timestamps:

(00:02) The Israel-Palestine Occupation

Daniel shares the injustice and violence Palestinians have faced, highlighting the terror and pain caused by Israeli attacks on Christian and Muslim Palestinians.

(10:29) Understanding Gaza and Palestinian Identity

Daniel shares his family's 13-generation history in Bethlehem, discussing the plight of Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and Palestine.

(14:26) Christian Palestinian Identity and Ignorance

Daniel Benora's Christian Palestinian experience, ignorance and apathy in the West, and the complicity of media and pastors in creating and perpetuating this ignorance are explored.

(18:39) Western Media's Middle East Bias

We examine Orientalism, Palestinian Christians, and the colonial mentality of the Western world to challenge racism in the Middle East.

(27:34) Influence on Israeli-Palestinian Occupation by Politics, Media, Religion

Zionism's history, anti-Semitism, British Empire, violence against Palestinians, media, US government, Church, and justice for Palestinians discussed.

(39:59) Violence and Pacifism in Israeli-Palestinian Occupation

We examine Hamas' motivations, self-defense ideology, Israel's surprise, and faith identity in a violent context.

(53:13) The Palestinian Christian Perspective

Palestinian Christians discuss nonviolent resistance, US imperialism, preferential option for the poor, and the way of the cross.

(58:41) Misrepresentation of God and His People

We question God's representation in war, reject the distinction between Jews and non-Jews, and explore faith, not lineage, for righteousness and God's love.

(01:03:08) Jesus and the Old Testament

Daniel discusses Christ-centered Bible reading, repentance for violence, and researching the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.

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95. Was Jesus Palestinian? with Jeffery Stevens

About this Episode

Tune in for an insightful conversation with Jeffrey Stevens, an independent journalist and director of the Azarius Project, as we take a hard look at the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territory and the impact it's having on the Christian and other communities within these borders. Hear firsthand about the misinformation circulating among Christian Americans and learn about Jeffrey's own transformation from being pro-Israel to acknowledging the impossibility of supporting both Israel and the sanctity of life simultaneously. 

If you’re one of us, or you’re new here, you should know that there has always been a personal journey at the heart of The Bad Roman Project. It’s been one that's demanded a complete overhaul of previous beliefs. A path paved with discomfort while challenging long-held perceptions and demanding an honest reassessment of Christian values. As always, there's so much more to the story than what's on the surface and what’s important is that we talk about it. 

While mainstream media often skews the reality on the ground, our conversation challenges those narratives and scrutinizes the role of the US and Israeli governments in perpetuating the inhumane policies of the occupation. In this uncompromising discourse, we're asking the hard questions, discussing who gets to define terrorism, examining the treatment of Palestinians (both Muslim and Christian), and unlocking the transformative power of relationships to remedy bias in our perspectives.

But our journey doesn't stop there. In this episode, we're bringing the focus back home, because change starts on your doorstep. We discuss the importance of evangelizing in our own neighborhoods and fostering a personal relationship with Jesus. Be prepared for a lively debate on what Jesus' stance would be of his birthland today and the recognition that the world is indeed larger than just the United States. So, buckle up and come along for an enlightening, perhaps life-altering ride with us. 

Connect with Jeffery:

Catholic Workers Project

Azarias Project

Arab American News

Catholic Wordsmith

Episode Timestamps:

1:05 Correct framing as the illegal Occupation vs. the Israel-Palestine Conflict

• Joe Chadburn Episode

• Importance of independent journalism

• Importance of reframing the language we use to describe a topic

• Unpacking beliefs about Israel in Christian upbringing

• Used to cover Vatican news until 2009 began covering Israel-Palestine 

4:52 Who is Jeffery Stevens?

• Arab American News

• Director of Azarias Project

• Grew up: pro-life, pro-Israel Christian

• Difference between pro-life and anti-abortion

• Blood Brothers Book by Palestinian Catholic Priest, Elias Chacour (Author), David Hazard (Author), James Baker (Foreword) 

• Jesus is Palestinian, not Israeli

• When Bible speaks of Israel it’s referring to Christians not the Israeli government

8:08 Conviction of USA and Israel as the “good guys” against terrorism

• Post-9/11 

• You can respect veterans and still be critical of USA’s imperialism 

• Jesus Christ would not approve of what is happening in the Middle East no matter who is doing it

• Governments can often be found to act more in accordance to the definition of terrorism than those we call the name

• Military bases and proximity to oil reserves

• Syria

• Smedley Butler (Joe Chadburn)

• French Concrete Company sued for assisting ISIS — millions of dollars the US government kept it

• Should Christians care about what is happening in the birthplace of Christianity?

15:16 Where the End of the Earth Begins article on The Catholic Wordsmith

• Acts 1:8

• Popular Christian evangelical verse, we seek to evangelize in frogmen lands and forget to do so in our own neighborhood

• Christians only on Sundays?

• “Jesus would have to cross 15 Israeli checkpoints and a 30-foot wall to get to Bethlehem”

• Americans fail to understand what “occupation” means

• Palestinian Christian population over time and occupation’s influence on their decline

• Israeli Occupation forces and desire for all Jewish state, turning Al_Asqua Mosque into a temple

• Bible bans Jews from 3rd Temple

• Far-right drive

• Texas cows flown to Israel

28:10 Who is funding Israel?

• Palestine of all religions suffer at the hands of this funding under an occupation

• Trump and Israel

33:44 Jenin [on] the Fourth from Arab American News

• West Bank, Refugee Camps

• “Terrorist hot-spot” vs. resistance fighters and patriots

• Ron Paul

• Blowback

• Boston Tea Party was not peaceful

• The American Revolution

• Were we better off before?

• Jesus’s disciples

• Writing about Old Testament and current affairs

• Azarias Project

• Book of Tobit, Archangel Raphael

48:51 The World is Bigger than the USA

• Yemen and Saudi 

• Saudi Golf Tour

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36. Love Without Borders with Josh Allen

Josh Allen sits down with Craig to discuss his article “Christians without Borders.” Josh is a deacon at his church and focuses his life on doing what’s right and loving everyone around him regardless of nationality, political party, or any other measure. 

Craig and Josh explore the Christian response to people coming across the United States' southern border and how they understand it as christians and anarchists. Regardless of one’s political stance, Jesus taught that everyone is our neighbor and commanded us to love them. Our focus should be on His borderless Kingdom, not on the Empire of America. We need to give ourselves permission to let our love for God and for all people be our priority in life life with others, whoever these "others" may be.

“Anarchist friends. Don't let anarchy be to you what politics is to the folks that we've sort of left behind. Right? Love Jesus. More than you love anarchy or anything else.”

- Josh Allen

Timestamps & Starting Points:

1:30 “a great governor in Texas”

• Craig’s coworker comments how glad he is the National Guard is protecting our border

  • So, Craig tunes him out and decides we need an article

    • Enter Josh Allen

2:37 Who is Josh Allen?

• Floridian

• Deacon

• Republican → Libertarian → anarchist/label-less

• 3:58 “People want to label everyone as either conservative or liberal; you're Democrat or Republican; you're this, or you're that. I'm in the camp of doing what's right.” -Josh Allen

5:00 Who is my neighbor?

• Literally everyone

• 5:53 “[Jesus] didn’t care about nation-states. He said all the time: He has a different Kingdom.” -Craig

• 6:10 “Jesus is essentially telling people to shift their focus, stop caring about what the government says is important and care about what I (you know, the Son of God who sacrificed Himself for the salvation of the entire world) -- focus on what I'm telling you is important. You know, as God-- the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, who is essentially the King of the universe.” -Josh

7:00 Interpreting Scripture

• Most Christians are biblically illiterate; they don’t know how to study the Bible 

• OR they’re proud and think they have all the answers

  • God is mysterious. No one has all the answers

  • They make the entire Bible say what they want about one political issue, like the border

• It's really all quite simple

  • Love God

  • Love your neighbor

  • Love your enemy

9:30 Are borders good or bad?

• I don't know

• But we don't have control over whether or not there are borders, so what's the point in arguing?

  • Why don't we just love the people around us?

• Are the people coming over the border evil? Are they coming to hurt us?

  • They're mostly coming to escape problems caused by our government

  • They're coming over to feed their families

• Threat or opportunity?

  • Christian priority is to tell people about Jesus and spread His love

12:17 Christian identity entangled in the state

• Giant American flag in church's ceiling

• Teaching that America is the new Israel

  • Or was at least created to protect Israel

  • But in reality, America is Babylon

• Religion of the state is blatant, but we don't see it

  • The temple of Abraham Lincoln

• People wrap their identity in who they watch on the news

17:33 Trump vs Biden on the border

• Trump said so many hateful things about the wall

• But Biden has locked up more kids and hurt more people than Trump ever did

  • And the Left is silent! 

  • They are so loyal to their team, they can't admit the evil

18:54 Teams

• People voted solely based on fear of the other side

• Christians latched on to Trump despite his hateful words because the Republican party is "godly"

• Choosing

  • Cannot support the atrocities of the bipartisan options

    • Voted 3rd party in 2016

  • No viable options in 2020

  • If we can’t even be libertarian, who are we?

    • American identity is so wrapped up in political tribes

    • Found anarchist communities

      • Space to actually talk through issues without being accused of hating America

28:09 Childhood Education Propaganda “Truths”

35. All Christians Should be Anarchists with Pete Quinones

Pete Quinones, podcaster on Free Man Beyond the Wall and By Any Memes Necessary, writer for the Libertarian Institute, and documentary producer of The Monopoly on Violence, shares with us his thoughts, as an unbeliever, on why anyone who claims to follow Jesus should be an anarchist.

Timestamps & Starting Points:

3:35 The early Church and anarchy

• “My reading of the Bible is that every Christian should be an anarchist, and I don’t see where the whole bowing to the state, much less worship of a state that I see in the United States [comes from].” - Pete

4:40 Christians aren’t supposed to be involved in the state

• 86% of people in Congress identify as Christian

  • “Anybody who goes into politics is going into politics to get wealth and power... so, I think they would say anything in order to secure that office.” - Pete

6:11 How Christians are perceived by non-Christians

• Divided

• Pete is not upset by hypocrisy because everyone on Earth is a sinner. What disappoints him is seeing Christians wedded to and worshipping the state.

11:39 Reasons Christians Excuse Anything Israel Does

• Dispensationalism 

  • Idea that Jesus won’t come back until the Temple is rebuilt in Jerusalem

  • Christians will forgive anything as long as Israel has power so the Temple can be rebuilt 

  • is only 200 years old, compared to Christianity being 2,000 years old

  • “Israel was never a place; it was the people of God.” - Pete

  • Israel is now populated by white Europeans, and that is who we want to side with over the brown people who don’t speak English

• Ryan Dawson of the Anti-Neocon Report talks about how the Israeli government is running the US government

• “People will say, ‘Well, that’s cool.’ because it’s Israel. Nonono! That’s not how this works. We follow the teachings of Christ, and everything that the United States government and Israeli government’s doing-- that’s not how Christ told us to behave. Ever.” - Craig

• Israel is not a democracy!!

  • It’s a theocratic socialist state

  • They’re welfare queens!

  • “This is theatre.” - Pete

22:46 2020 Theater

• Elites have been buying land to live underground

  • If there was a real dangerous pandemic, they would have disappeared

  • Bill Gates didn’t even wear a mask at all

• Insurrection

  • Congresspeople hid. These are the people who send others to fight in wars that benefit them. They’re cowards.

• If the military was fighting for us, they’d attack the government

  • They’re defending the state.

28:10 FBI infiltrators

• People in the insurrection who are not being charged or even named

• Terror Factory by Trevor Aaronson

  • The FBI groomed kids to become terrorists and then arrested them

  • They don’t hate us for our freedoms. They hate us for killing their people and occupying their land.

33:35 The Constitution

• “This is actually where my rabbit hole started that led me to anarchy. It was my study of the United States Constitution.” - Craig

• “According to the United States Constitution, every war since WWI has been illegal.” - Craig

36:49 People trust cops, even when they don’t trust the government 

• Police are the worst because it’s your trusted neighbor, family member, or friend enforcing unconstitutional laws

• Police disregarding the Constitution

  • If you talk back to a cop, you’ll get thrown on the ground and arrested

  • If a cop sees you have a weapon, he’ll shoot you and/or take it from you

  • If a citizen did what cops do every day, they’d be called a criminal

  • “There’s a class of people above us in this country, and we all don’t have equal rights.” -Pete

  • “The state only protects the state. They have no interest in your rights.” -Craig

  • Duncan Lemp

    • Cops showed up at 4am to confiscate his illegal guns

    • Shot him dead through the window, dragged out his pregnant girlfriend and left her there outside

    • Read More

48:19 Plugs

• Episode 593 with Matt Erickson; talks about religion/Christianity

• Pete on Twitter

• Facebook