121. Israel of the Bible vs Today's Nation State Waging Genocide in Gaza and How to Get Back to Jesus with Grace Batchoun

About this Episode

Is the world turning a blind eye to the plight of Palestinians? Grace Batchoun, a Christian and Co-founder of Canadians for Justice and Peace in the Middle East, joins Craig for a deeply personal conversation about the ongoing Occupation of the Palestinian people and genocide in Gaza. Grace shares her journey as a Palestinian Christian and highlights the dire situation in Gaza, challenging the narrative of Israel's self-defense. 

Grace and Craig emphasize the need for Christians to align with the teachings of Jesus by advocating for peace and justice over death and destruction. Grace deconstructs the ongoing expansion of settlements, which defy international law and United Nations resolutions. How does this impact the lives of those in the region? The conversation unpacks the complexities of everyday life brought on by the Israeli Occupation of Palestinians, urging listeners to reconsider their perspectives and recognize the humanity of Palestinians. 

The current humanitarian crisis and genocide in Gaza is another focal point. The severe conditions caused by Israeli blockades and refusal to work toward a ceasefire agreement—continuing the unending starvation, destroyed infrastructure, and families in distress. What does this mean for the people living there, and how can the international community respond?

Craig and Grace also examine the role of evangelical Christian support for Israel. Does this stance align with the teachings of Jesus on peace and justice, or does it contradict them? Through personal stories and historical context, this episode offers a Palestinian perspective on displacement and life under occupation.

Finally, the discussion sheds light on the broader implications of Israel's actions on international law and human rights. How do these actions measure up against the conventions established after World War II? Listen to this episode of the Bad Roman Podcast and join the conversation online as we navigate these challenging topics, encouraging listeners to reflect on justice, peace, and the power of global solidarity.

Learn More about Palestine:

Canadians for Justice and Peace in the Middle East

Episode Timestamps:

(0:22) Addressing the Gaza Crisis

• Craig expresses concern over the escalating situation in Gaza

• mainstream narrative that frames Israel as merely defending itself against terrorism.

(2:07) Grace Batchoun’s Background

• Grace shares her family's history as Palestinian refugees and her journey to Canada.

• Her parents were expelled from Palestine in 1948, leading to a life of displacement and eventual settlement in Canada.

• Grace discusses her Christian faith, which she embraced through InterVarsity Christian Fellowship and her active role in church ministries.

(4:09) Awakening to Activism

• Grace recounts a pivotal moment in 2002 that shifted her focus from personal life to activism, following a tragic incident in Jenin.

• The story of Jamal Fayid a paraplegic man crushed by an Israeli tank sparked her involvement in humanitarian efforts.

• This incident led to her collaboration with World Vision and the founding of Canadians for Justice and Peace in the Middle East.

(6:41) Humanitarian vs. Occupation Crisis

• Grace emphasizes the need to address the root cause of the conflict: the occupation.

• She argues that the issue is not merely humanitarian but deeply political, rooted in military oppression and land colonization.

• The ongoing occupation perpetuates suffering and prevents any lasting peace or resolution.

(9:07) Misinterpretations Among Christians

• Common misinterpretation among Christians regarding Israel as a nation state versus a biblical concept.

• Grace and Craig stress the importance of understanding the biblical context, where Israel is seen as a spiritual entity rather than a modern nation state.

• Confusion among Christians who equate biblical Israel with the current political state.

(12:12) The Reality of Gaza

• Grace provides stark statistics on the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, including the destruction of infrastructure and the high number of casualties, particularly among women and children.

• Gaza as one of the most densely populated areas, suffering from severe shortages of basic necessities.

• The blockade and military actions have led to a dire humanitarian situation, with widespread destruction and loss of life.

(16:30) Genocide or Defense?

• The actions of Israel meet the definition of genocide.

• international legal definitions of genocide and how they apply to the current situation.

• Challenges the narrative that frames Israel's actions as self-defense, highlighting the disproportionate impact on civilians.

(19:01) Personal Stories and Historical Context

• Grace shares her family's displacement and the broader historical context of Palestinian expulsion and land loss.

• She recounts her family's experiences of being expelled from their home and the ongoing struggle for recognition and rights.

• The historical context of the 1948 Nakba and subsequent conflicts is discussed to provide a deeper understanding of the current situation.

(25:56) The Ongoing Occupation

• Grace details the continued expansion of Israeli settlements and the impact on Palestinian lives, drawing parallels to historical injustices.

• systematic displacement of Palestinians and the appropriation of their land for settlements.

• legal and ethical implications of the occupation and the international community's response.

(33:07) Misconceptions About Hamas

• Both speakers clarify that their stance is not in support of Hamas but rather in defense of human rights and international law.

• a common misconception that criticism of Israel equates to support for Hamas.

• The focus is on advocating for the rights and dignity of all people, regardless of political affiliations.

(36:09) International Response and U.S. Influence

• Grace discusses the global response to the conflict and the significant role of U.S. support for Israel, which she argues hinders peace efforts.

• The influence of U.S. foreign policy and military aid in perpetuating the conflict is examined.

• Grace calls for reevaluating international support and a push for genuine peace initiatives.

(41:32) The Role of Christians and the Church

• Craig and Grace critique the church's role in perpetuating misconceptions and call for a return to Jesus' teachings, focusing on peace and justice.

• They discuss the responsibility of Christians to challenge unjust systems and advocate for the oppressed.

• need for the church to be a voice for peace and reconciliation

(48:22) Call to Action

• Grace urges Christians to advocate for peace and justice, emphasizing the need for awareness and action against the ongoing occupation and humanitarian crisis.

• She calls for a collective effort to educate and mobilize communities to support human rights.

• The importance of speaking out and taking a stand against injustice is highlighted as a core Christian value.

(54:14) Personal Transformation and Advocacy

• Grace reflects on her journey from personal focus to activism, highlighting the importance of individual action in the face of global issues.

• She shares her experiences of overcoming apathy and becoming a vocal advocate for justice.

• The transformative power of personal stories and the impact of grassroots activism 

(1:02:11) Closing Thoughts

• Craig and Grace conclude with a call for continued advocacy and awareness, stressing the importance of speaking out against injustice.

• They encourage listeners to educate themselves and others about the realities of the conflict.

• The episode ends with a reminder of the power of collective action and the potential for change.

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59. Jesus, Memes, War, and Canadian Truckers with Nathan Chavoya, Tony & Abby Cleckner

About this episode

For episode 59 of the podcast, Craig is joined by (sometimes) co-host Abby Cleckner for a conversation with fellow podcasters, Nathan Chavoya and his co-host Tony, to talk about the power of memes, their podcast Reality Czars, and, of course, Jesus.

We covered a wide variety of topics in this episode, from why we use memes to Amish communities and the pros and cons of Trump supporters. As always, it comes back to the question of: What Would Jesus Do? Whether we’re considering people who don’t want to listen, Canadian truckers, Ukraine and Russia, the Mexican border, war and Christianity, the indoctrination of the church, or conservative Amish communities – in everything, we must follow the example of Jesus.

Nathan is the social media manager for The Bad Roman Project. He makes a lot of the memes you see on our page. You can find Nate and Tony's show and where to connect with them via their link tree (content warning for all of their media: profanity, crude humor, rude comments).

Episode Timestamps:

5:50 Why memes work

• People often seem to get more out of memes than the podcast

• Non-intrusive way to absorb an idea

• Can light a fire… maybe dose a red pill

  • Makes people read all day to learn more

  • Might change their entire perspective on the world

9:01 People who love to smell their own farts

• Some people just want to inform others how wrong they are

• Go on long rants

• You can’t do anything about it when they refuse your offered resources

  • They don’t really want answers

  • “I could tell you, but you're not listening to me anyway.” -Craig

• Saying, “You’re wrong” and writing a novel about why is not going to get you engagement

• Using tired information and arguments won’t convince anyone

• Proving you’re not interested in learning more about what you disagreed with shuts down the conversation

12:45 Canadian truckers

• “I see a bunch of statists running around out there waving their flags, trying to change the government and get the government to give them back their freedoms.” - Craig                                                       

  • We make fun of the patriot libertarians

    • But at least they’re doing something

      • Ancaps are sitting on their butts

      • Agorists are building their own markets and ignoring society

      • “I'm glad that there is some pushback.” - Nate 

      • Maybe they have the wrong approach, but at least theyr’e taking action

• Craig warned them to watch for feds/politicians trying to infiltrate their group

  • The feds are the dumb ones

    • There was a guy at the truck rally waving a Nazi flag

  • They literally all wear the same black boots

  • They try to paint any pushback as racist

    • It’s just normal folks saying, “Keep that crap away from me.”

• Trudeau called them harmful white nationalists

  • As they helped homeless people on the video behind his voice

  • There’s not just white people involved

• What is their goal? How does sitting there help?

  • Trudeau said all truckers must be vaccinated

    • Put a travel ban on unvaccinated

    • Even US truckers coming in must get the shot

    • In the US, like 60% of truckers are not vaccinated

  • They're holding a huge strike

    • Not shipping

    • Clogging up streets

  • People raised over $10 million on GoFundMe

    • It got refunded because the site refused to support the truckers

    • Another site stepped up and raised $3 million in 24 hours

  • Not directly hurting anyone

    • People won’t be able to get what they ordered

      • If there was no effect, what’s the point?

    • They have every right not to do their job

  • Some say it’s not really a grassroots movement

    • Most guys are there to fight the power

    • But it was the deep state’s idea

      • Elon Musk has created self-driving trucks

      • They are going to prevent humans from stopping shipment again by using computers instead

        • “Never again”

  • Wouldn’t it be more effective to just keep doing their jobs unvaccinated?

    • Instead of just sitting there waiting for the government to change its mind

    • People can refuse their shipments if they want

    • But it might have made less of a media splash

    • How could the government really enforce it? There’s too many of them

      • The laws wouldn’t mean anything anymore

  • Actually, a lot of the truckers are vaccinated

    • They’re still protesting with their brothers

    • They don’t believe anyone should be forced into it

    • In most realms of society, it’s the unvaxxed vs vaxxed, but these guys can still work together

    • They haven’t converted to the religion of COVID-19

    • They don’t see those without it as heretics

    • They just watch the news, and the news told them to get it

    • Most people don’t have access to alternative media

    • They’d been locked down for 2 years

    • Believed the vaccine would protect them, that they wouldn’t get COVID (not true), that they wouldn’t spread COVID (not true), and that the symptoms will be less bad (maybe?)

    • Realize they were duped, life didn’t go back to normal, we keep being told if we do just one more thing, it will all be over

    • How long will people continue doing the rain dance that doesn't bring any rain?

    • When will they say, “No! I don't trust you anymore.”

    • People are afraid to eat crow

    • They don't want to admit they were wrong, so they just continue to do what they're told and pretend to agree

24:47 The reality of COVID

• Some sort of virus definitely exists 

• It might not have actually been any worse than other years

  • The people in charge got to tell us what's causing deaths

    • They know how to manipulate statistics

  • Three years ago, if your grandma had cancer and diabetes, then got the flu and died, the flu would not be blamed

    • Almost everyone had 3 to 4 comorbidities

  • The average age of people who died from COVID was 81

    • The average age of people who die in America regularly is 79

• Theories on why it didn’t hurt most people

  • If they really made this in a lab, they didn't do a very good job

    • It didn't hurt very many people

    • It's all just a circus made to distract us

    • Or maybe they just weren't able to test it on average humans

      • Maybe they tested it on sickly populations and it wiped out a good chunk of those people

        • Prisoners low on vitamin D and will to live would get much sicker and be more likely to die

    • “They thought it was going to be really bad and were disappointed. So they had to start making up numbers.” - Abby

  • Psy-op 

    • Maybe it wasn’t about wiping out the population

    • Maybe it was about seeing what they could make us do

      • Even places who did not comply at first masked up for Omicron for some reason

        • Omicron meme example

29:18 Mandates

• Some counties in Tennessee tried to hold on to mask mandates

  • The state made them illegal at the county level

    • But schools were still free to choose

    • Craig’s friend’s kids were required to get vaccinated to go to school

      • Abby told her kids they wouldn’t be allowed to go if that happened

      • Nate and Craig would want to get violent if the school required that

        • Craig wouldn’t even stand for masks

    • People living in places where it’s not required are choosing to wear 2 masks and get jabbed

      • They’re scared

    • In Oregon, they forced all school staff to get the vaccine

      • A lot of teachers chose instead to get fired

      • Parents are all mad, but they do nothing

32:26 Schooling

• If we all got together and hired the fired teachers, we could have our own school

  • No more government indoctrination camp

  • No more teaching our kids weird things we don’t want them to learn

  • The unvaxxed teachers are more likely to align with our values

• Let’s come together and homeschool instead of getting our kids vaccinated so that they can be indoctrinated

33:52 Ukraine and Russia

• You have to look back at their history to understand

• Is the threat of war just posturing by Biden?

  • His guys supposedly killed an ISIS leader in Syria the other day

    • Some people say he wasn’t even a leader

    • So many innocent people died in that air strike

  • Is this also just something they’re saying to look good?

  • Biden’s popularity has been plummeting

    • Whenever that happens, they start talking about war

• It doesn’t look like Russia is wanting war

• History

  • Raegan and Gorbachev made an agreement that NATO would never extend east beyond Western Germany and the USSR would not come west of it

  • NATO has taken over many former USSR countries

  • Russia wants at least a buffer between themselves and NATO

    • That was Ukraine

    • They said if NATO came into Ukraine, they’d fight

• Who knows what will happen

  • We’re acting like the biggest bully

    • But are we?

    • We just turned tail and left Afghanistan

• What people are saying

  • Someone said, “Man, those democrats sure do like war”

    • Dude, the republicans continued several wars with Trump in office

    • You just gotta agree with them

      • Because that is true

      • Ask them questions: 

        • Why don’t they like war?

        • Find out their principles

      • Then ask them to be consistent when a republican comes to power

39:26 Border crossers

• Conversation Craig had

  • “Trump gave us a secure border”

  • “By locking kids in cages”

  • “But at least it was secure”

  • “I dunno; doesn’t seem Christlike”

  • *silence*

• Use, “IDK… WWJD?”

• Someone said, “Most of the kids in cages aren’t even related to any adults they came with. I’d rather my kid sit in a cage than be sex trafficked.”

  • Obama made some sort of rule that if you brought a kid with you, the US government would let you through no questions asked

    • So, lots of sex and drug traffickers used that to their advantage

  • They couldn't keep the kids and adults together because they were afraid of the kids being abused, especially since most of them were not with their parents

  • "I don't think the cages are the best solution still. Call me crazy." - Abby

• We just need to get rid of drug laws and borders, and most of these problems would be solved

• Why do people care if anyone comes over the border anyway?

  • What's so wrong about them looking for a better life?

  • People here don't want to work, so why can't they let someone else come do it?

  • So many people who oppose the border don't realize the people getting ahead in their precious capitalist system are bringing people over the border for cheap labor

    • They don't get held accountable, but Mom and Pop places do

  • Work visas

    • Families have to live off one income if one spouse is deported

  • “They’re so sweet; I don’t understand why we treat them like garbage.” - Craig

• Shoot ‘em

  • People want to have snipers on top of the wall picking crossers off

    • Because maybe then they’d think twice about coming over

  • There used to be a group who shot border crossers

  • They have similar attitudes towards Muslims

    • If they saw one with a backpack on, they’d shoot

      • How does one know a man is Muslim?

        • You’d have to do a little interview with him first

45:00 Evangelicals love war and destruction

• They’re the top demographic to support war, capital punishment, torture…

• How is that possible??

  • Maybe it started with one issue, like abortion, and once the Republican Party could control what they thought about that, they could control what they thought about everything else too

  • Conservative culture is more important to them than Jesus or liberty

    • They stick a Jesus fish on their car to prove their love

• Evangelicals will get mad at you when you say you don't support war 

  • They actually seem to equate being a Christian with supporting war

    • They don't see the conflict there

  • “I was that guy…It never dawned on me that murdering people was not what Christ wants us to do.” - Craig

  • There has to be some fascinating psychology behind that

    • Someone made a diabolical plan to cause it

• It’s taught in churches

  • Perhaps most strongly in Southern Baptist congregations

• But people can love their country without loving murder and theft

• The church was infiltrated

  • The first churches in early America were very anti-state

  • Maybe the desire for power was too strong and they combined with the state

  • Maybe they learned loyalty to the state from the Church of England

    • Or they were used to controlling the state through the church

  • The separatists coming from England had been persecuted by the Anglican Church and had no interest in being like them

51:51 Amish

• Were getting murdered by other denominations

• Fled to America

• Stuck their heads in the ground and became entirely separate

• Did not operate like England at all

• Some anabaptists are trying to convince the more conservative Amish groups to engage with the fringes of society

  • They’re so secluded they won’t even help people outside the church

• Their strict rules are a new form of oppression

• Treat their women like second class citizens

  • Jesus never talked about that

  • Maybe it’s an indoctrination

  • A lot of Muslim women say they like and choose their head coverings

• Some Amish communities kick their kids out into the world at 16-18 to let them decide for themselves

  • Some don’t and people flee

    • They send members after them like a Mormon cult

55:54 Reality Czars podcast

• Unscripted

  • Which is good because popular guests who usually repeat the same thing wind up sharing something new or funny

• Nate and Tony teamed up

  • Met at Squatchfest

  • Tony helped Nate kill some pigs for an anarchist animal butchering class

    • (he kind of expected to get killed because Nate’s standing their with a gun and HUGE pigs in the pen, and they were only acquaintances)

  • They had interesting conversations and decided to start a show

• Nate’s side hustle

  • Wife Abbey writes these show notes (hi)

  • He makes the memes

  • Abbey also does proofreading

• Nate’s baby

  • Is actually 8.5 months old now

  • Happily wears bow ties to church

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