137. Render Unto God: Challenging Church-State Entanglement

Render Unto Caesar: Unmasking the True Meaning Behind Jesus' Words

How many times have we heard the scripture "render unto Caesar" used to defend entanglement with the state? It's a common argument, but one that completely misses the point of Jesus' teaching. In this eye-opening episode of the Bad Roman Podcast, Craig sat down with Zachary Gomez to explore the real meaning behind this often misused scripture and its profound implications for how Christians should view their relationship to earthly governments.

The Trap of Misinterpretation

Zachary kicked off the discussion by highlighting a crucial detail many overlook - the context of Jesus' words:

“They were trying to trap him. And in context, you know, they were people under an oppressive Roman government. While they may have initially thought they were going to receive some benefit from the system, they now came to realize that it wasn't all it was meant to be.”

This context completely changes how we should understand Jesus' response. He wasn't giving a blanket endorsement of paying taxes or submitting to state authority. He was deftly avoiding a trap while making a much deeper point about where our ultimate allegiance should lie.

The Idolatry of Statism

As they dug deeper, Zachary made a powerful observation about the root issue behind misusing this scripture:

“The idolatry of statism is the real reason people say that render unto Caesar meant that we should pay taxes. That false church system has led people astray into this idolatry.”

This cuts to the heart of the matter. When Christians use "render unto Caesar" to justify entanglement with the state, they reveal a fundamental misunderstanding of where their citizenship truly lies. As followers of Christ, our primary allegiance is to His kingdom, not earthly governments.

Reframing Our Understanding

So how should we interpret Jesus' words? Zachary offered this perspective:

“He was saying, is this your God? Are you made in the image of Caesar or in the image of God? So, you know, that's why they went away amazed in some sense because he totally outwitted them.”

Rather than a command to submit to state authority, Jesus was challenging his listeners to examine where their true loyalty lay. He was drawing a stark contrast between the kingdom of God and the kingdoms of this world.

The Gospel as a Political Declaration

One of the most paradigm-shifting insights Zachary shared was about the nature of the gospel itself:

“The word gospel is a political declaration of a conquering king and his kingdom. And the people in Jesus' day would have understood that in their Greek understanding.”

This reframes how we should view the entire message of Jesus. It wasn't just about personal salvation, but about the establishment of an alternative kingdom that stands in opposition to worldly power structures.

Practical Implications

So what does this mean for Christians today? Zachary emphasized the need for a radical reorientation:

“The gospel is an explicitly political message and it does not allow for dual citizenship. Jesus said, you cannot serve two masters.”

This challenges us to seriously examine our entanglement with the state and political systems. Are we truly living as citizens of God's kingdom, or have we compromised by trying to have one foot in each world?

Making the State Obsolete

Perhaps the most revolutionary idea discussed was how Christians could render the state irrelevant through radical obedience to Christ's teachings:

“If Christians would seek the kingdom in exclusivity and do business with one another, trusting in God alone for our welfare, and participating by fulfilling our roles in his kingdom and government, by loving and serving like him, then we make the state obsolete.”

Imagine the transformation that could occur if believers truly embraced this vision! By living out the values of God's kingdom - love, service, generosity - we could create communities that make the coercive power of the state unnecessary.

What We Learned About Kingdom Living

The conversation with Zachary Gomez challenged some deeply ingrained assumptions about how Christians should relate to earthly governments. Here are the key takeaways:

1. The "render unto Caesar" passage is not a blanket endorsement of state authority, but a challenge to examine our ultimate loyalty.

2. The gospel itself is a political declaration about the establishment of God's kingdom.

3. We cannot serve two masters - our citizenship is either in God's kingdom or the kingdoms of this world.

4. By fully embracing kingdom living, Christians can create communities that make the state obsolete.

5. This requires a radical reorientation of how we view our role in society and our relationships with others.

Listen to the full episode for an even deeper dive into these transformative ideas. As you do, ask yourself: Am I truly living as a citizen of God's kingdom, or have I compromised by trying to have dual citizenship? The answer to that question could radically change how you engage with the world around you

Connect with Zachary:

• Abolish Human Archism: Website recommended for further exploration of Christian anarchist ideas.

• Leaving Egypt Ministries: An anarchist Christian page promoting anti-statist gospel messages.

• X: @LeavingEgyptMin

• Website: leavingegyptministries.com

• Zachary Gomez on social media:

• Facebook: Zachary Gomez

• Instagram: @goodnews_zach

Episode Timestamps:

(1:29) Zachary Gomez's Background

• Originally from Austin, Texas, now in Nashville

• Theology degree from Oral Roberts University

• Runs a home maintenance business

(3:41) The Church's Entanglement with the State

• Contrast between early church and modern church practices

• Bad Roman Project's focus on recognizing state entanglement as contrary to Jesus' teachings

(5:24) The False Dichotomy of Right and Left Politics

• Discussion on the similarity of behavior across political spectrums

• Lack of self-awareness among statists

(7:50) Misinterpretation of Jesus' Teachings

• Examples of Christians misunderstanding Jesus' stance on law and government

• Importance of taking Jesus' words seriously

(9:19) Analyzing the "Render unto Caesar" Passage

• Full context of Matthew 22:15-22

• Jesus' response as a clever evasion of a trap

(15:03) The Meaning Behind Jesus' Response

• Coin as a representation of idolatry

• Jesus challenging the Pharisees' true allegiance

(19:01) Modern Parallels to Caesar Worship

• Government seen as the source for meeting needs

• Conflict between serving God and serving the state

(22:42) The True Gospel and Its Political Nature

• Gospel as a political declaration of Jesus' kingship

• Incompatibility of dual citizenship in God's kingdom and earthly kingdoms

(28:34) The Solution: Seeking God's Kingdom

• Living out the true gospel in community

• Making the state obsolete through Christian love and service

(38:03) The False Church System and Idolatry

• Dream analogy of the abusive husband as false church

• Christians' hesitancy to leave familiar but harmful systems

(46:55) Practical Steps for Living Out the Kingdom

• Importance of meeting neighbors and building community

• Examples of serving others without expectation of payment

(1:07:28) Conclusion and Resources

• Leaving Egypt Ministries and other recommended resources

• Encouragement to live distinctively as Christians

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136. Critical Thinking in the Age of Government Control with Jeffrey Hann

The Fallacious Belief in Government: Unmasking the Illusion of State Control

Are you ready to challenge everything you thought you knew about government and freedom? In this eye-opening episode of the Bad Roman Podcast, we dive deep into the heart of statism with author and researcher Jeffrey Hann. His latest book, The Fallacious Belief in Government: Warp Speed Toward Tyranny, exposes the dangerous myths we've been fed about the necessity of state control.

As we unpack the layers of government deception, you'll discover:

• Why critical thinking is deliberately suppressed in public education.

• How psychological operations keep us trapped in a cycle of fear and obedience.

• The true nature of government as a tool of control over the innocent.

• Why voting can't save us from the inevitable march toward tyranny.

• How embracing anarchist principles could be our path to genuine freedom.

Prepare to have your assumptions challenged and your perspective transformed. This isn't just another political discussion – it's a wake-up call for anyone who values true liberty.

The Critical Thinking Crisis

What if our education system is deliberately designed to create "literacy slaves" – people smart enough to work, but not equipped to think critically about the world around them? Jeffrey breaks down how the classical trivium and Prussian education models have shaped generations of minds:

"You have the classical trivium that really creates literacy slaves that are smart enough to work, but not smart enough to think for themselves. The another model that the US picked up was the Prussian education system. The Prussian education system was designed by the Prussians after their military and mercenaries lost against Napoleon. And their parliament decided and determined that it was because soldiers were thinking for themselves."

This systematic suppression of independent thought isn't an accident – it's a feature of the system designed to maintain control. By understanding the three pillars of critical thinking – grammar, logic, and rhetoric – we can begin to break free from this mental prison.

The Psychological Warfare Playbook

Government control goes far beyond the classroom. Jeffrey exposes the insidious world of psychological operations (psyops) used to manipulate public perception and behavior:

"And if you're unaware of that, it just seeps in and it causes a psychological effect so that you struggle at trying to make real informed decisions, making you easier to control and manipulate."

From manufactured crises to carefully crafted narratives, these tactics keep us in a constant state of fear and compliance. By recognizing these strategies, we can start to see through the illusion and reclaim our mental autonomy.

The True Nature of Government

From democracy to tyranny - is it inevitable? Hann walks us through Plato's five regimes and why he thinks we're headed for a fall. 

At its core, Jeffrey argues that government is nothing more than "a tool or action of control over the innocent." This fundamental truth challenges the very foundation of what most people believe about the role of the state in society:

"The true nature of government is tyrannical… just looking at the word government itself, it's a tool or action of control over the innocent. And I always classify that. ‘Over the innocent’ is why it makes it tyrannical because that, if you're being controlled and you haven't committed a crime, created a victim, then your rights are being violated."

This perspective forces us to confront uncomfortable questions about the legitimacy of state power and the true meaning of concepts like "law" and "justice."

The Illusion of Political Solutions

If you're pinning your hopes on the next election to solve society's problems, Jeffrey has a sobering message:

"There's no voting our way out of it. Tyranny is just gonna progress further and further. Trump and Musk are implementing Agenda 2030 and ushering in the Great Reset."

He argues that the political system itself is designed to perpetuate control, regardless of which party or individual is in power. This cycle of tyranny can't be broken through conventional means – it requires a fundamental shift in how we think about governance and freedom.

Embracing Anarchist Principles

So what's the alternative? Jeffrey advocates for a form of anarchism based on voluntary interactions and respect for natural rights:

"Anarchism is a system or practice of no rulers, voluntary action and absence of government over the innocent, based on natural rights, life, freedom and property. That is the, the most succinct definition I can provide of what anarchy is and that there's no middle ground."

This isn't about chaos or disorder – it's about creating systems that respect individual autonomy while allowing for voluntary cooperation. It's a radical reimagining of how society could function without coercive state control.

What We Learned About Freedom and Government

This conversation with Jeffrey Hann challenges us to question our deepest assumptions about the role of government in our lives. By exposing the fallacious belief in state control, we open the door to new possibilities for genuine freedom and voluntary cooperation.

Key takeaways:

• Critical thinking is a skill that can be developed, despite systemic efforts to suppress it.

• Psychological operations are constantly at work to maintain our compliance – awareness is the first step to resistance.

• Government, by its very nature, is a tool of control over the innocent.

• Political solutions within the current system cannot address the fundamental problems of state tyranny.

• Embracing anarchist principles based on voluntary interaction and natural rights offers a path forward.

Are you ready to challenge your beliefs and explore a new vision of freedom? Listen to the full episode for an in-depth exploration of these ideas and practical steps you can take to reclaim your autonomy. Remember, true change begins with how we think about the world around us. It's time to break free from the mental chains of statism and embrace a future of genuine liberty.

Connect with Jeffery:

Get His Books:

• COVID-19: A Short Path to You'll Own Nothing and You'll Be Happy (2023)

• The Fallacious Belief in Government: Warp Speed Toward Tyranny (2025)

Connect with Jeffrey Hann on social:

• X (Twitter): @JeffreyHann

• Instagram: @Jeffrey.A.Hann

• YouTube: JREV Music

Listen to the Music:

• "Fallacious Belief in Government" album on YouTube

• "Militant Anarchist" album on YouTube

• Also available on streaming platforms like Spotify, Apple Music, and Pandora

Explore his Website:

• Journalistic Revolution: journalisticrevolution.com

• Instagram: @journalisticrevolution

Facebook: Journalistic Revolution

Episode Timestamps:

(2:01) Jeffrey's recent projects

• Music production and album releases

• Focus on conveying philosophical beliefs through music

(3:01) Critical thinking and government belief

• Challenges in getting people to question their faith in government

• Importance of critical thinking skills in today's society

(4:30) Personal journey of changing beliefs

• Discomfort in realizing one's previous beliefs were wrong

• Importance of being open to new perspectives

(6:06) Psychological operations and fear

• Discussion on the use of fear by governments

• Historical context of psychological operations

(8:34) Life cycle of government

• Exploration of Plato's five regimes

• Inevitability of tyranny in governmental systems

(20:36) Democracy and its flaws

• Critique of democracy as majority rule

• Discussion on the misuse of the term in modern politics

(25:23) Anarchism and its principles

• Definition and exploration of anarchist philosophy

• Importance of voluntary interactions and absence of rulers

(37:35) Roads argument and government justification

• Common arguments for government necessity

• Critique of government efficiency in infrastructure

(42:05) Hope and the need for societal evolution

• Discussion on the potential for positive change

• Importance of creating content to spread ideas

(47:55) Jeffrey's resources and future projects

• Overview of books, articles, and music

• Upcoming work on plasma cosmology

(49:20) Conclusion and call to action

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133. When the Church Looks Away: Chronic Illness, Faith, and the Call to Love with Claire Staples and Sarah Perry

What happens when the body of Christ forgets its own?

In this powerful episode of The Bad Roman Podcast, Claire Staples (The Clarity Podcast) and Sarah Perry (Voluntarism in Action) join host Craig Harguess for a conversation that exposes the gap between what churches preach—and how they treat the chronically ill. Drawing from their lived experiences within the LDS Church and broader Christian communities, they explore what it means to suffer in faith while being ignored by the very institutions meant to offer support.

Both women share how chronic illness is often not only misunderstood but actively stigmatized within religious settings. Instead of being met with compassion, those with long-term illnesses are often sidelined, silenced, or blamed for their own suffering. Their stories are a sobering look at how churches—particularly those entangled with state-aligned ideologies and cultural expectations—can lose sight of Christ’s command to care for "the least of these."

The Hidden Burden: When Suffering Meets Silence

Claire and Sarah’s experiences reveal a troubling pattern: while churches may rally around someone facing a temporary injury or illness, chronic conditions are another story.

• Church leaders suggested their illnesses were spiritual failures—evidence of insufficient faith or unrepented sin.

• Expectations to “perform” remained unchanged, even when health was failing.

• Requests for help were met with cold bureaucracy or outright neglect.

As Sarah put it: “People hear the word ‘disease’ and they lose it.” The fear of illness—and the discomfort it brings—often leads communities to withdraw rather than draw near.

These moments beg a difficult but necessary question: Are we building churches that reflect Christ, or churches that maintain appearances?

A Return to the Gospel’s Core

Rather than offering cynicism, this episode calls for renewal. Claire and Sarah ground their critiques not in bitterness, but in Scripture. They point to the life of Jesus and the stories that define what it truly means to follow Him:

• The Good Samaritan reminds us that love is inconvenient—and that holiness is shown in how we treat those others ignore.

• Jesus’ healing of lepers challenges the impulse to keep our hands clean when our neighbors are in pain.

• The story of Job warns against the human tendency to explain away suffering with judgment.

These biblical examples offer more than comfort—they offer a roadmap back to the kind of faith that moves toward people, not systems. As Claire noted, “We need to bring it back to basics, back to home and family. Then we would all know Jesus better.”

What the Church Can Do Better

The conversation also offers tangible steps for churches and individuals who want to support chronically ill members with more integrity and compassion:

• Educate congregations on the realities of chronic illness.

• Offer support that doesn’t hinge on a person’s ability to serve or attend.

• Resist the temptation to “fix” suffering with theology—start by listening.

• Build inclusive spaces that reflect the full diversity of the body of Christ.

Claire and Sarah challenge the tendency to outsource care—whether to medical institutions or church programs—and remind us that the call of Christ is personal. The Gospel is not a system; it is a way of being with one another.

Faith in the Midst of Pain

Perhaps the most transformative thread in this episode is the reimagining of suffering itself—not as a sign of divine punishment, but as a crucible that can deepen intimacy with Christ. Both guests reject the prosperity gospel’s promise of health as a sign of favor, and instead point to the promise of God’s presence through the valley.

Suffering doesn’t disqualify us from God's love—it draws us deeper into it.

As Claire shared, “I don’t think I would have fully understood what Jesus did for me on the cross if I hadn’t suffered horrendously at no fault of my own.”

This conversation is a challenge—and an invitation. A call to rethink what it means to be the Church. A reminder that faith is not proven by perfection, but by how we love one another through imperfection, weakness, and pain.

Connect With Our Guests:

Claire Staples – The Clarity Podcast

Claire shares faith-centered conversations on recovering from high-demand religion, chronic illness, and returning to Christ-centered living.

• Podcast: The Clarity Podcast on Spotify

• Instagram: @theclarity.podcast

• YouTube Channel: The Clarity Podcast on YouTube

• Website + Nonprofit: ChronicallyBeautifulLife.com

  • Learn more about the Chronically Care Project and donate or contribute to care packages for the chronically ill.

Sarah Perry – Voluntarism in Action

Sarah volunteers with VIA, a liberty-rooted nonprofit providing direct aid and resources to communities in need—without state involvement.

• Organization Website: viaction.org

• Instagram: @voluntarism_in_action

  • Support ongoing humanitarian campaigns (e.g. Gaza relief, Congo gardens, US seed kits)

  • Sign up to receive free spring gardening kits (US-only) to promote food sovereignty

• Blog: VIA’s website also features resources on mutual aid, self-sufficiency, and disaster relief.

Episode Timestamps:

(0:02) Introduction to the Bad Roman Podcast

• Guests Claire Staples and Sarah Perry join to discuss chronic illness and the church

• Previous Episode with Claire: From Mormon LDS to Freedom in Christ: Unveiling Lies in Medicine, Government, and Religion

• Previous Episode with Sarah: Christian Ethics and Stateless Societies: The Anarchist Approach of the Perry Family

(0:22) Exploring Christian Responsibility in Healthcare

• Discussion on whether Christians are doing enough for the sick

• Questioning the comfort with government management of healthcare for Christians

(0:45) Claire and Sarah's Background with Chronic Illness

• Both guests share experiences with chronic illness in the LDS (Mormon) Church

• Instances of being shunned or misunderstood due to their health conditions

(2:11) Claire's Nonprofit Work

• Introduction to the Chronically Care Project, supporting those with chronic illnesses

• Insights gained from working with chronically ill individuals globally

(4:30) Sarah's Experience with Chronic Illness and Church

• Growing up with vague symptoms in an abusive family

• Expectations and disappointments within the Mormon Church community

(7:41) Church Leadership Response to Illness

• Sarah's experience of being shunned by church leaders for being sick

• Discussion on the importance of temple recommends in Mormon culture

(12:07) Comparing Church Experiences to Cult Documentaries

• Craig draws parallels between the guests' experiences and cult-like behaviors

• Reflection on the control and hierarchy within religious organizations

(17:21) Cultural Influences on Church Attitudes Towards Illness

• How state and government attitudes infiltrate church culture regarding chronic illness

• Examples of church leaders' responses to requests for help and understanding

(25:48) The Role of Medical System in Church Attitudes

• Discussion on the church's reliance on mainstream medical systems

• Critique of outsourcing care to doctors instead of providing community support

(30:28) LDS Church's Relationship with Government and Healthcare

• Exploration of the church's investments in medical and pharmaceutical industries

• Comparison of church tithing to government taxation

(36:06) Scriptural Solutions for Caring for the Sick

• Analysis of the Good Samaritan parable and its relevance to chronic illness care

• Discussion on Jesus' treatment of lepers and its modern application

(49:33) The Book of Job and Suffering

• Interpretation of Job's story in relation to chronic illness and faith

• Exploration of spiritual warfare and demonic influences on attitudes towards suffering

(1:03:38) Why Bad Things Happen to Good People

• Discussion on God's role in suffering and the nature of a fallen world

• Personal story from Craig about his niece's cancer diagnosis

(1:12:26) God's Love and Community Support

• Reflection on God's nature as love and the importance of community in times of suffering

• Craig shares positive experiences of support for his niece

(1:15:11) Closing Thoughts and Resource Sharing

• Claire and Sarah share information about their projects and podcasts

• Encouragement for listeners to engage with resources for supporting the chronically ill

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108. God's Garden vs. Industrial Farming

About this Episode

When Michael from Copperhead Hill Farms traded his suburban lifestyle for the pastoral rhythms of farm life, he didn't expect a couple of gifted pigs to sow the seeds for a revolution in local farming. His tale is a testament to the power of community and self-sufficiency, a narrative we unpick throughout this episode. Unfolding Michael's evolution alongside the challenges and triumphs of establishing a farm with his wife, Carrie, our conversation is a clarion call to reconnect with our food sources and empower our communities through conscientious consumption.

We've all felt the pinch of regulations and red tape, but have you considered how it affects the tomato on your plate or the salsa in your jar? Our discussion takes a turn toward the limitations faced by those who dare to venture into local food production. It's a candid look at the struggles to maintain integrity and quality in our food systems, punctuated by heartening tales of community resilience and the practical magic of trading eggs for tomatoes. Join us as we challenge the status quo of convenience and champion a return to authentic, locally-sourced sustenance. 

Our journey wraps up with a look at the significance behind the rebranding of Copperhead Hill Farms and how it reflects the rebellious spirit akin to moonshiners of yore. Michael and I share our personal transformations, from ideology shifts to the empowering embrace of Christian pacifism and community-focused living. The episode is a rallying cry for listeners to find strength in like-minded communities and take a firm stance in their beliefs. Saddle up for an episode that promises to ignite your spirit of independence and leave you pondering the true cost of the food that graces your table.

Connect with Michael and Copperhead Hill Farms:

Copperhead Hill Farms Website

Copperhead Hill Farms Instagram

Copperhead Hill Farms Facebook

Episode Timestamps:

Timestamps:

02:12 Local Farming and Community Autonomy

• Discussing the transition to sustainable farming, from suburban to farm life, and its impact on community support and the environment.

• The role of community collaboration in successful sustainable farming.

• How adopting farming can improve personal health and lifestyle.

• The potential of local farming to rejuvenate local economies and ecosystems.

07:57 Barter-Based Economy and Legal Challenges

• Personal experiences of a barter economy and the legal issues faced by small-scale farmers.

• The history and modern relevance of barter-based economies in rural communities.

• Legal barriers and regulations impacting small-scale and local farming.

• Advocacy efforts and resources for overcoming legal challenges in local farming.

18:23 Importance of Local Food Sources

• The role of local farming in food security and the benefits of supporting local farmers.

• How local food sources reduce the carbon footprint associated with food transport.

• The positive impact of local food sources on the nutritional value and taste of food.

• Ways to identify and support local food sources in your area.

25:44 Challenges and Solutions for Local Farmers

• Discussion on the high costs of sustainable farming and the influence of consumer choices on local farms.

• Strategies for overcoming financial challenges in sustainable farming.

• The role of consumer awareness and education in supporting local farms.

• The potential of technology and innovation to address challenges in local farming.

33:13 Autonomy and State Control

• Independence from state interference in sustainable farming, examples of entrepreneurial success strategies to navigate state regulations.

• The importance of balancing state control and farmer autonomy for a sustainable agricultural sector.

• Success stories of farmers who have navigated state regulations to establish successful local farms.

• The role of local communities and organizations in advocating for farmer autonomy.

43:02 Significance of Farm Name Change

• Transition from Black Sheep Farmstead to Copperhead Hill Farms and its symbolic significance in personal farming story.

• The role of branding and storytelling in connecting with consumers and the local community.

• The importance of embracing change and evolution in the journey of sustainable farming.

• How a name change can signify a new phase or direction in a farmer's journey.

58:49 Personal Ideological Transition

• Journey from neoconservatism to Christian pacifism and its impact on local farming and community engagement.

• The influence of personal beliefs and ideologies on farming practices and community relations.

• The potential of farming to be a platform for expressing personal beliefs and values.

• How ideological shifts can lead to changes in farming practices and community engagement.

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